Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by stone » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 00:53:23



http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2005/06/30/ap2118519.html
 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by Paul Anderso » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 03:58:48



Quote:

> http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2005/06/30/ap2118519.html

From the article:

   On Thursday, Greek Development Minister Dimitris Sioufas said
   low-denomination bills would help Europeans better understand the
   value of the euro and deter businesses from overpricing basic items.

Are they saying that if people pay for an item with coins, where they
previously paid with bills, the perception is that it is cheaper?  And
therefore, businesses are raising prices because the perception of
price is lower?

Are people in Greece really this stupid?  One euro is one euro,
regardless of whether it's a coin or a bill.  If people are having
trouble transitioning from drachmas to euros, that's another story.  I
fail to see how using a bill or a coin is going to help there.

Why should they start making low-denomination bills just because Greece
didn't keep up with their own money system and kept ridiculously-low
bills in circulation?

Paul

--
 Paul Anderson
  OpenVMS Engineering
  Hewlett-Packard Company

 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by Christian Feldha » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 04:29:03


Quote:

> http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2005/06/30/ap2118519.html

Guess that game will go on and on <g>. The Italian government will claim
that the Italians still want low value notes, and the European Central
bank says No again. Shortly afterwards the Greek government will say
that people in their country want low value notes, and the ECB - see
above. And so on. I find it somewhat odd that almost four years after
the introduction of the cash, some people in GR and IT still have not
gotten used to the cash, but in any case, why should the rest of
Euroland have to deal with such rag euros?

Christian

 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by gogu » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 09:04:28




Quote:


>> http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2005/06/30/ap2118519.html

> From the article:

>   On Thursday, Greek Development Minister Dimitris Sioufas said
>   low-denomination bills would help Europeans better understand the
>   value of the euro and deter businesses from overpricing basic items.

> Are they saying that if people pay for an item with coins, where they
> previously paid with bills, the perception is that it is cheaper?

Nope.
They are saying that older people who lived for decades with the drachmas
can better "feel" the value of the money if expressed in drachmas instead of
euros.
Same say the Italians, the French and quite every people in the EU.
And let's not forget UK that doesn't like to change its currency, one of the
reasons (maybe the smaller reason but nevertheless a reason) been that.

Quote:
>  And
> therefore, businesses are raising prices because the perception of
> price is lower?

YES!
In Greece like in France, 100 drachmas "became" one euro, in France they say
one franc "became" one euro and so on...
Germans are protesting, too, and they say they want their mark back.
I don't think that people are stupid just because you can't get the essence
of the problem...

Quote:
> Are people in Greece really this stupid?

Yes Master Genius ;-)

Quote:
> One euro is one euro,
> regardless of whether it's a coin or a bill.

Yeah, that's why Americans dislike the coin dollars and prefer to use the
dollar bills...
In your line of logic they must be stupid, too ;-)

Quote:
>  If people are having
> trouble transitioning from drachmas to euros, that's another story.  I
> fail to see how using a bill or a coin is going to help there.

Then pray tell why Americans prefer to use the bill instead of the coin ?...
It must help some people if they do that...

Quote:
> Why should they start making low-denomination bills just because Greece
> didn't keep up with their own money system and kept ridiculously-low
> bills in circulation?

Italy had even lower denominations but I see that you are not protesting
about "stupid" Italians...
Spain had small denominations quite like Greece.

PS
    I am a Greek and I feel like that, so I must be stupid :-)...

--

E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane!    F.d.A

Coins, travels and more: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html

Quote:

> Paul

> --
> Paul Anderson
>  OpenVMS Engineering
>  Hewlett-Packard Company

 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by Dik T. Winte » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 09:01:43



 >
 > > http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2005/06/30/ap2118519.html
 >
 > Guess that game will go on and on <g>. The Italian government will claim
 > that the Italians still want low value notes, and the European Central
 > bank says No again. Shortly afterwards the Greek government will say
 > that people in their country want low value notes, and the ECB - see
 > above. And so on.

Has Austria gotten out of that discussion?  I find it interesting that
quite a few of the new member nations already circulate coins that are
in excess of 1 (or even 2) Euro.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by gogu » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 09:08:02




Quote:

>> http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2005/06/30/ap2118519.html

> Guess that game will go on and on <g>. The Italian government will claim
> that the Italians still want low value notes, and the European Central
> bank says No again. Shortly afterwards the Greek government will say
> that people in their country want low value notes, and the ECB - see
> above. And so on. I find it somewhat odd that almost four years after
> the introduction of the cash, some people in GR and IT still have not
> gotten used to the cash, but in any case, why should the rest of
> Euroland have to deal with such rag euros?

Christian, I've read lately that even the Germans are asking for their Mark
back not to mention the French !
So it's not only the Greeks, the Italians, the French or the Germans but -I
believe- every older person in euroland.
But I agree with you: "the game will go on and on" but there is no chance to
go back to the old currencies.
Euro is here to stay.

--

E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane!    F.d.A

Coins, travels and more: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html

Quote:
> Christian

 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by Dik T. Winte » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 09:46:40


...
 > So it's not only the Greeks, the Italians, the French or the Germans but -I
 > believe- every older person in euroland.

I think I figure in the group of older persons.  No, I do not want back
the old currency.  On the other hand, I do not see how a change to low
denomination notes will change anything.  I think the problem is that
some people perceive that when something is a note it is suddenly
expensive, while you can spend coins as you wish.  The common perception
of the people that want to go back to the old currency is that the Euro
makes everything more expensive, and that is a (common) fallacy.  It is
not the Euro, but the abuse some branches in commerce made when changing
to the Euro.  Changing back to the original currency will *again*
increase prices.  In the Netherlands I have seen the change of the 1 gulden,
2 1/2 gulden and 5 gulden notes to coins without a perceptible change in
appreciation.  On the other hand I have in my collection rag-notes from
countries that have (and had) no real value at all.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by gogu » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 10:27:51




Quote:

> writes:
> ...
> > So it's not only the Greeks, the Italians, the French or the Germans
> > but -I
> > believe- every older person in euroland.

> I think I figure in the group of older persons.  No, I do not want back
> the old currency.

I never said that *all* older persons do want that Dik ;-)

Quote:
>  On the other hand, I do not see how a change to low
> denomination notes will change anything.

Nobody said it will change, that's what they believe.

Quote:
> I think the problem is that
> some people perceive that when something is a note it is suddenly
> expensive, while you can spend coins as you wish.

This is true.
Psychology.
And that's why Americans don't give up their currency dollar...
And here we are not talking about "some" but about "many" as the majority of
the Americans favor the dollar bill as opposed to the coin dollar.

Quote:
>  The common perception
> of the people that want to go back to the old currency is that the Euro
> makes everything more expensive, and that is a (common) fallacy.

Well, it is not fallacy and it's only partially true: the euro didn't make
everything expensive, it's just a currency after all.
The speculation of the people did everything expensive.
But people have associated the euro with higher prices, so I understand
their reaction...

Quote:
>  It is
> not the Euro, but the abuse some branches in commerce made when changing
> to the Euro.

Right.

Quote:
>  Changing back to the original currency will *again*
> increase prices.

Hmmmm ... not sure...
As I can see, most of the people do remember the pre-euro prices so I don't
think they'll be fooled one more time...

Quote:
> In the Netherlands I have seen the change of the 1 gulden,
> 2 1/2 gulden and 5 gulden notes to coins without a perceptible change in
> appreciation.

In Greece the change of 50, 100 and 500 drachmas from paper to coin had a
negative effect on the appreciation.
When it was paper, it was OK to leave 100 drachmas as a tip at the
restaurant, after the change everybody was ashamed to leave one coin of 100
drachmas...
Same with euro: before it was OK to give a tip of 100/200 drachmas, now 1
euro (=340 drachmas) is considered a shame to give as a tip !

rgrds

--

E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane!    F.d.A

Coins, travels and more: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html

Quote:
>  On the other hand I have in my collection rag-notes from
> countries that have (and had) no real value at all.
> --
> dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland,
> +31205924131
> home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland;
> http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by Padraic Brow » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 11:38:27




Quote:



>>> http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2005/06/30/ap2118519.html

>> Guess that game will go on and on <g>. The Italian government will claim
>> that the Italians still want low value notes, and the European Central
>> bank says No again. Shortly afterwards the Greek government will say
>> that people in their country want low value notes, and the ECB - see
>> above. And so on. I find it somewhat odd that almost four years after
>> the introduction of the cash, some people in GR and IT still have not
>> gotten used to the cash, but in any case, why should the rest of
>> Euroland have to deal with such rag euros?

>Christian, I've read lately that even the Germans are asking for their Mark
>back not to mention the French !

I wonder how much of that is Germans and French realising that they
are giving up their very own countries -- Germany's ability to direct
Germany's policies -- piecemeal. I think this is one reason why the
Brits have restrained from the euro -- they still have what we like to
call a national backbone. ;))))

Quote:
>So it's not only the Greeks, the Italians, the French or the Germans but -I
>believe- every older person in euroland.

That doesn't make any sense -- the older generation of Europeans more
than any other generation ought to be USED to currency change overs!
Octogenarian Germans should remember the last gasp of the Weimar
marks, 3rd Reich marks, post-war deutchmarks/marks. The euro should be
a slice of cake for them. The French should also remember pre-war and
post-war francs plus that change (I think in the 1960s) from old to
new francs.

Quote:
>But I agree with you: "the game will go on and on" but there is no chance to
>go back to the old currencies. Euro is here to stay.

Is that really so? Is it so binding that Greece couldn't choose to
pull out? Not saying they would, mind!

Padraic.

la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by Padraic Brow » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 11:38:27




Quote:
>> One euro is one euro,
>> regardless of whether it's a coin or a bill.

>Yeah, that's why Americans dislike the coin dollars and prefer to use the
>dollar bills...In your line of logic they must be stupid, too ;-)

Actually, it s stupid. Americans don't like dollar coins because they
are a nuisance. There's not enough of them to really make a dent, even
for those of us who would want to use them. Commerce refuses to
actually use them, despite banks who have "Got golden dollars" posters
and Wal Mart 'promotions' when the thing was first introduced. They're
a nuisance because there is still the more familiar ragbuck in common
use and is numerically FAR more numerous than the coins.

If we had no real choice but the dollar coin, we would "like" them as
much as any of the other uninspired currency types we've got.

Quote:
>>  If people are having
>> trouble transitioning from drachmas to euros, that's another story.  I
>> fail to see how using a bill or a coin is going to help there.

>Then pray tell why Americans prefer to use the bill instead of the coin ?...

Been addressed here lots of times. Americans d like the dollar coin
-- very rare indeed is the experience where people actually DISlike
the dollar coin. We don't really "prefer" to use the dollar note --
it's simply the only viable choice we have at present, unless we
specifically hunt down and seek out dollar coins.

And anyway, we're not using a new currency system! I think his point
is how would a €1.oo note help the Greeks any more than a €1.oo coin
when the whole system is all new?

Quote:
>> Why should they start making low-denomination bills just because Greece
>> didn't keep up with their own money system and kept ridiculously-low
>> bills in circulation?

>Italy had even lower denominations but I see that you are not protesting
>about "stupid" Italians...

I think he mentioned Italy.

Quote:
>Spain had small denominations quite like Greece.

Smallest peseta note denomination (as of 10 years ago when I was
there) was 1000. They had replaced the 200 and 500 pta notes with
coins by then -- the equivalent of about €2 and €5 -- even better than
present system, which offers a €5 note rather than a coin.

Quote:
>    I am a Greek and I feel like that, so I must be stupid :-)...

Well, how would a one euro note help you come to grips with the new
system in a way that the present one euro coin can't?

Speaking as one of those reviled Merkins, I had absolutely no
difficulty with going from US$ to Spanish pesetas. I had no choice.

I guess the best thing you lot in general can do is 1) suck it up and
2) get over it. The drachma is gone, along with the peseta and lira.
Stop thinking in terms of drachmas and you'll be perfectly at home
with euros in about a week.

Padraic.

la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by Jud » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 14:02:53


  On the other hand I have in my collection rag-notes from

Quote:
> countries that have (and had) no real value at all.

I still have a few 50 notes from Jamaica when the exchange rate to
the US dollar was J$0.88=US$1.00 (about 1974). Last time I was there,
in January, the exchange rate was US$1.00=J$62.00, making the notes
value US$0.008, almost 1 cent. In 1974 the largest bill was J$10.00,
and I can remember the introduction of the J$10, J$20, J$50 and J$100.
Now the most common bill is J$500 with quite a few J$1000 in
circulation. It boggles the mind buying a beer for J$300, but it sure
is fun playing poker. "See your $100 and raise you another $100". I use
the J$100 bill for a bookmark, cheaper than buying a bookmark and has a
lot more class. The J$20 coin is bimetallic and the J$10 coin has a
scalloped edge, both neat coins.
 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by Christian Feldha » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 18:52:54



Quote:
> Has Austria gotten out of that discussion?

Guess that some in Austria would not mind, or even welcome, having low
value notes. But I suppose that, first, they have gotten used to the
coins, and second, they do not expect rag euros to solve any country
specific problems.

Quote:
> I find it interesting that quite a few of the new member nations already
> circulate coins that are in excess of 1 (or even 2) Euro.

As did DE and NL until early 2002 <g>. Guess the gap between 2 and 5
euro was a little wide to also make a 5 euro coin. Well, I realize that
the current setup was a compromise accepted a couple of years ago, and
it does not make much sense to discuss the coins/notes "setup" every
couple of weeks :-)

However, if the governments of two Mediterranean countries want low
value notes so desperately that despite various comments and final
decisions of the ECB they demand them again and again, we should also
think about higher value coins. They would be fine with me.

Christian

 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by Christian Feldha » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 18:52:55


Quote:

> I wonder how much of that is Germans and French realising that they
> are giving up their very own countries -- Germany's ability to direct
> Germany's policies -- piecemeal. I think this is one reason why the
> Brits have restrained from the euro -- they still have what we like to
> call a national backbone. ;))))

Well, if you join a union (European Union, a currency union, etc.), you
do of course give up some of your "national sovereignty". That is how
such unions work. The rules of a club may well change with the times,
but don't join a club if you do not intend to play by its rules anyway
<g>.

Quote:
> Is that really so? Is it so binding that Greece couldn't choose to
> pull out? Not saying they would, mind!

The European currency is part of the EU's acquis communautaire like
pretty much the rest of EU law. Which means a joining country cannot
simply pick some rules it likes to adhere to, and state it will ignore
some others. Now we all know that rules are there to be dealt with
flexibly ;-)  So I suppose that, if a member state wants to leave the
European Union, it will ultimately do so even though - since the
Constitution was rejected due to the Dutch and French votes - there is
no "legal" path of doing so. Similarly, if a country wants to stay or
get out of the currency union, there will be a way ...

Christian

 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by Christian Feldha » Sat, 02 Jul 2005 18:52:55


Quote:

> Christian, I've read lately that even the Germans are asking for their Mark
> back not to mention the French !

Sure, and others blame the European Union for the effects of
globalization, and thus voted against the Constitution ... and others,
particularly in DE, say that our economy would still be "healthy" if the
Eastern German states had not joined the Federal Republic 15 years ago.
You will always have people who say that "back then, things were
better".

And if someone gets "hit" by various extreme price increases, he or she
is likely to ignore the fact that the overall price increase as
expressed in the inflation rate has been at a record low since the
introduction of the euro cash. Well, maybe these people hope that those
businesses that abused the cash changeover for price hikes (and yes,
there were quite a few such cases!) will not do so if the cash is
replaced by new cash once again. Huh? ;-)  

Quote:
> So it's not only the Greeks, the Italians, the French or the Germans but -I
> believe- every older person in euroland.

The difference is that, in terms of government "requests", it is only
the Greek and the Italians that try changing the coins/notes setup again
and again. (In the first years, it was also the Austrian government that
wanted them.) After some consideration, the ECB decided about half a
year ago to not introduce such low value notes. From the 18-Nov-2004
press release:  

| In particular, the insufficient demand for very low denomination
| banknotes by the majority of euro area citizens, the increased
| inefficiency the introduction would imply for most of the affected
| third parties, for instance the retail sector and the vending machine
| industry, and the high costs of printing and processing support the
| Governing Council's decision on this issue.

But only a couple of weeks later the Greek minister Dimitris Sioufas and
the Italian premier Silvio Berlusconi demanded low value notes again ...
Maybe it would help if GR and IT issued such rag euros themselves, which
would then (just as the 5, 10, etc. collector coins) be legal tender
in the issuing country only?

Christian

 
 
 

Greece urges ECB to issue low denomination Euro notes

Post by gogu » Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:12:07




Quote:


>>> One euro is one euro,
>>> regardless of whether it's a coin or a bill.

>>Yeah, that's why Americans dislike the coin dollars and prefer to use the
>>dollar bills...In your line of logic they must be stupid, too ;-)
> Actually, it s stupid.

:-)
As Jesus said: "you said it" ;-)))

Quote:
> Americans don't like dollar coins because they
> are a nuisance.

So, why Europeans should not feel the same nuisance for their one euro coins
?...
My pocket is some times so heavy that it makes it a hole ;-)

Quote:
> There's not enough of them to really make a dent, even
> for those of us who would want to use them. Commerce refuses to
> actually use them, despite banks who have "Got golden dollars" posters
> and Wal Mart 'promotions' when the thing was first introduced. They're
> a nuisance because there is still the more familiar ragbuck in common
> use and is numerically FAR more numerous than the coins.

!
That's what I said about the old European currencies !
We all are used with our "old" money, so...
Just think what would happen if Americans would change their currency with a
*totally* new one like the euro !...

Quote:
> If we had no real choice but the dollar coin, we would "like" them as
> much as any of the other uninspired currency types we've got.

Well, this is happening with Europeans but it will take some times for the
older people to accustom with the new currency.
I don't see something unusual to this...

Quote:
>>>  If people are having
>>> trouble transitioning from drachmas to euros, that's another story.  I
>>> fail to see how using a bill or a coin is going to help there.
>>Then pray tell why Americans prefer to use the bill instead of the coin
>>?...
> Been addressed here lots of times. Americans d like the dollar coin

My experience from a couple of threads here and from articles is different;
Americans dislike the dollar coin but they use it because they can't refuse
it.

Quote:
> -- very rare indeed is the experience where people actually DISlike
> the dollar coin. We don't really "prefer" to use the dollar note --
> it's simply the only viable choice we have at present, unless we
> specifically hunt down and seek out dollar coins.

> And anyway, we're not using a new currency system! I think his point
> is how would a ?1.oo note help the Greeks any more than a ?1.oo coin
> when the whole system is all new?

I have explained it how.
But as I also said, many people in the EU feel this way and not only the
Greeks are asking for a euro note...

Quote:
>>> Why should they start making low-denomination bills just because Greece
>>> didn't keep up with their own money system and kept ridiculously-low
>>> bills in circulation?
>>Italy had even lower denominations but I see that you are not protesting
>>about "stupid" Italians...
> I think he mentioned Italy.

His quote is just above mine here, no Italy.
Maybe in another paragraph.

Quote:
>>Spain had small denominations quite like Greece.
> Smallest peseta note denomination (as of 10 years ago when I was
> there) was 1000. They had replaced the 200 and 500 pta notes with
> coins by then -- the equivalent of about ?2 and ?5 -- even better than
> present system, which offers a ?5 note rather than a coin.

>>    I am a Greek and I feel like that, so I must be stupid :-)...

> Well, how would a one euro note help you come to grips with the new
> system in a way that the present one euro coin can't?

The point is not that the euro note will help me the way you say, it will
just make people "feel" better the value of the money !

Quote:
> Speaking as one of those reviled Merkins, I had absolutely no
> difficulty with going from US$ to Spanish pesetas. I had no choice.

And I have lived for years abroad, so I never had a problem with any foreign
currency.
But here we are not talking about me and you, we are talking about entire
countries, with many older persons...

Quote:
> I guess the best thing you lot in general can do is 1) suck it up and
> 2) get over it. The drachma is gone, along with the peseta and lira.
> Stop thinking in terms of drachmas and you'll be perfectly at home
> with euros in about a week.

???
Who said that I believe to a come back ?!
I know that euro is here to stay, so I don't understand you above quote...
I was jut talking about how people feel generally, not me !

A nice weekend to you, too...

--

E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane!    F.d.A

Coins, travels and more: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html

Quote:
> Padraic.

> la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
> ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.