OT- Help Save Ben Avery Shooting Facility!

OT- Help Save Ben Avery Shooting Facility!

Post by Jeffry Johnsto » Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:56:07



: >...opportunity to make their voices heard on re-zoning proposals that
: >may threaten the future of the Ben Avery Shooting Facility in Phoenix.
: >Combined with increased government efforts to close public land to
: >recreational shooting, range re-zoning could spell disaster for
: >Arizona`s shooting heritage.

What a crock of shit. :/

That's one of the issues that separates libertarians from the "freedom"
posers.  They want to use the public land for what they want to use it
for.

If it ain't private land, it's a tax burden.
So, "let the taxpayers fund our shooting range" is the message there.
Right or wrong that's the message.

Land ownership is -the- key to freedom.

Exactly what is "Arizona`s shooting heritage" anyway?  What in the hell
does that mean?  Here in Arizona we have always used taxpayer's land for
"shooting sports" so we always should?

If the NRA wasn't funded by a group of "sporting goods" manufacturers,
but instead was all about the Bill of Rights they would be denouncing
the gov't ownership of land instead of promoting its use for their own
uses.  Oh, and don't forget about keeping it open for hunting so the
"shooting sports consumers" can consume the sporting goods.

Zoning wasn't contested when the NRA members were protecting their
house values but suddenly, now it's an issue?

Zoning sucks, Gov't owning land sucks more and the NRA whining about
the gov't zoning away their stooting range, what do you call that?

I call it a crocka shit. :/

Alvin in AZ (didn't say I was smart, just said I was a libertarian)
ps- if I was smart I'd shut the hell up :)

 
 
 

OT- Help Save Ben Avery Shooting Facility!

Post by Gunne » Wed, 30 Oct 2002 04:10:58


Quote:


>: >...opportunity to make their voices heard on re-zoning proposals that
>: >may threaten the future of the Ben Avery Shooting Facility in Phoenix.
>: >Combined with increased government efforts to close public land to
>: >recreational shooting, range re-zoning could spell disaster for
>: >Arizona`s shooting heritage.

>What a crock of shit. :/

>That's one of the issues that separates libertarians from the "freedom"
>posers.  They want to use the public land for what they want to use it
>for.

Thats why its called Public Land.
Quote:

>If it ain't private land, it's a tax burden.
>So, "let the taxpayers fund our shooting range" is the message there.
>Right or wrong that's the message.

So then, you are in favor of closing all the public parks, soccer
fields, lakes and streams?
Quote:
>Land ownership is -the- key to freedom.

Yes it is. Think you can get them to sell it to the shooters?

Quote:
>Exactly what is "Arizona`s shooting heritage" anyway?  What in the hell
>does that mean?  Here in Arizona we have always used taxpayer's land for
>"shooting sports" so we always should?

It means Arizona  has a long history of the shooting sports. Think the
State or Feebs will sell the land to them? They would love to buy it.
Quote:

>If the NRA wasn't funded by a group of "sporting goods" manufacturers,
>but instead was all about the Bill of Rights they would be denouncing
>the gov't ownership of land instead of promoting its use for their own
>uses.  Oh, and don't forget about keeping it open for hunting so the
>"shooting sports consumers" can consume the sporting goods.

My but you are a cynical bastard this morning. No coffee before
posting? Im not a "sporting goods" manufacture and my payments and
donations fund the NRA, along with the other 4.5 million members.

Quote:
>Zoning wasn't contested when the NRA members were protecting their
>house values but suddenly, now it's an issue?

Zoning wasn't contested because they didn't propose bulldozing their
homes flat like they want to do with the range.

Quote:
>Zoning sucks, Gov't owning land sucks more and the NRA whining about
>the gov't zoning away their stooting range, what do you call that?

Legitimate ***?
Quote:

>I call it a crocka shit. :/

Have some coffee, and mellow out.

Gunner

Quote:
>Alvin in AZ (didn't say I was smart, just said I was a libertarian)
>ps- if I was smart I'd shut the hell up :)

Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley,***d and
***d with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"

 
 
 

OT- Help Save Ben Avery Shooting Facility!

Post by Jeffry Johnsto » Wed, 30 Oct 2002 05:34:50


: >That's one of the issues that separates libertarians from the
: >"freedom" posers.  They want to use the public land for what they
: >want to use it for.

: Thats why its called Public Land.

Can you see it?  It's a form of welfare.
I know a lot of gun nuts that are down on welfare but then turn right
around and demand that the taxpayers support the "public lands" so they
can hunt or even have a thriving shooting club on it.

: >If it ain't private land, it's a tax burden.  So,
: >"let the taxpayers fund our shooting range" is the
: >message there.  Right or wrong that's the message.

: So then, you are in favor of closing all the public parks, soccer
: fields, lakes and streams?

I know what I'm saying all sounds pretty flakey, but that's how rightous
crazies sound! :)  A friend of mine has a gov't printed book that's the
plan laid out to aquire land.  And how to go about it.  No kidding they
want to close exactly what you're talking about.  My brother was a forest
ranger and one of them that cheered and was rightous about bulldozing
cabins in the Santa Rita's.  The 99 year leases weren't up, but they found
something they could present as a loop hole in court, after the cabins
were pushed into the canyons.  Even if the judge went with the lease
holders the cabins could not be rebuilt according to the lease.

They were pumped! :/

So now the shooting club is in that position and I guarantee you the gov't
will win this one too.  I've seen this same thing played out first hand.
Even some libertarians siding with the gun club. :/

Sorry but the shooting range needs to be on private land not welfare land
before I can get behind it 100%. :/  I can only support those that condemn
welfare in all it's forms, I guess.  Welfare is bad for those that give
it and those that receive it.

: >Land ownership is -the- key to freedom.
: Yes it is. Think you can get them to sell it to the shooters?

Nope. :)

: >Exactly what is "Arizona`s shooting heritage" anyway?  What in the hell
: >does that mean?  Here in Arizona we have always used taxpayer's land for
: >"shooting sports" so we always should?

: It means Arizona  has a long history of the shooting sports. Think the
: State or Feebs will sell the land to them? They would love to buy it.

There is the fight! :)  For me it's not about the shooting range it's
about who controls the land and it's use.  They want to keep a small part
for themselves, by itself that's no big deal.  But the salesman's pitch
for supporting them left out the welfare/taxpayer funding of their range.

That's the part that lit my fuse. :/

: >If the NRA wasn't funded by a group of "sporting goods" manufacturers,
: >but instead was all about the Bill of Rights they would be denouncing
: >the gov't ownership of land instead of promoting its use for their own
: >uses.  Oh, and don't forget about keeping it open for hunting so the
: >"shooting sports consumers" can consume the sporting goods.

: My but you are a cynical bastard this morning. No coffee before
: posting? Im not a "sporting goods" manufacture and my payments and
: donations fund the NRA, along with the other 4.5 million members.

Hmmm... You been spying on me?  How did you know I was a "cynical
bastard" ;)  I used to be a an NRA member and came very close to becoming
a life member back when it only cost $200.  And I shouldn't be so down on
the NRA.  Gunner, you wouldn't claim the NRA to 100% perfect and I guess
I'm just picking at the scabs. :/

: >Zoning wasn't contested when the NRA members were protecting their
: >house values but suddenly, now it's an issue?
: Zoning wasn't contested because they didn't propose bulldozing their
: homes flat like they want to do with the range.

Where were they when the cabins were being bulldozed flat?
Would they have been on the side thinking that "cool, more hunting and
shooting space"  They as a group, have supported zoning laws all along
and now it's turned around to bite them and they are calling foul.
Sorry but it's too late to fool me into believing them now. :/

: >Zoning sucks, Gov't owning land sucks more and the NRA whining about
: >the gov't zoning away their stooting range, what do you call that?

: Legitimate ***?

From a certain perspective, from another it's asking for their fair
share of the pie, many being veterans and all.  Too bad the gov't doesn't
work like that.  You get in bed with the gov't you're gonna get screwed,
they climbed in bed thinking they had a cozy relationship and then...

"save our piece of welfare from the gov't hatchet men"

: Have some coffee, and mellow out.
: Gunner

Oh man I wish it was that easy! :)
Being mellow and being a libertarian is mutually exclusive. :/

: >Alvin in AZ (didn't say I was smart, just said I was a libertarian)
: >ps- if I was smart I'd shut the hell up :)

: Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley,***d and
: ***d with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman
: explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"

Sure enough! :)

Alvin in AZ

 
 
 

OT- Help Save Ben Avery Shooting Facility!

Post by Gunne » Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:46:52


Quote:

>: >That's one of the issues that separates libertarians from the
>: >"freedom" posers.  They want to use the public land for what they
>: >want to use it for.

>: Thats why its called Public Land.

>Can you see it?  It's a form of welfare.
>I know a lot of gun nuts that are down on welfare but then turn right
>around and demand that the taxpayers support the "public lands" so they
>can hunt or even have a thriving shooting club on it.

Hint..the shooters are tax payers too. Not to mention paying more than
their fair share of Pittman Robertson Fund taxes among other taxes
which are earmarked for exactly that..range funding. They pay their
way.

Quote:
>: >If it ain't private land, it's a tax burden.  So,
>: >"let the taxpayers fund our shooting range" is the
>: >message there.  Right or wrong that's the message.

>: So then, you are in favor of closing all the public parks, soccer
>: fields, lakes and streams?

>I know what I'm saying all sounds pretty flakey, but that's how rightous
>crazies sound! :)  A friend of mine has a gov't printed book that's the
>plan laid out to aquire land.  And how to go about it.  No kidding they
>want to close exactly what you're talking about.  My brother was a forest
>ranger and one of them that cheered and was rightous about bulldozing
>cabins in the Santa Rita's.  The 99 year leases weren't up, but they found
>something they could present as a loop hole in court, after the cabins
>were pushed into the canyons.  Even if the judge went with the lease
>holders the cabins could not be rebuilt according to the lease.

>They were pumped! :/

>So now the shooting club is in that position and I guarantee you the gov't
>will win this one too.  I've seen this same thing played out first hand.
>Even some libertarians siding with the gun club. :/

>Sorry but the shooting range needs to be on private land not welfare land
>before I can get behind it 100%. :/  I can only support those that condemn
>welfare in all it's forms, I guess.  Welfare is bad for those that give
>it and those that receive it.

>: >Land ownership is -the- key to freedom.
>: Yes it is. Think you can get them to sell it to the shooters?

>Nope. :)

>: >Exactly what is "Arizona`s shooting heritage" anyway?  What in the hell
>: >does that mean?  Here in Arizona we have always used taxpayer's land for
>: >"shooting sports" so we always should?

>: It means Arizona  has a long history of the shooting sports. Think the
>: State or Feebs will sell the land to them? They would love to buy it.

>There is the fight! :)  For me it's not about the shooting range it's
>about who controls the land and it's use.  They want to keep a small part
>for themselves, by itself that's no big deal.  But the salesman's pitch
>for supporting them left out the welfare/taxpayer funding of their range.

>That's the part that lit my fuse. :/

Question..just how much land in Arizona is public..ie government owned
or controlled land?

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>: >If the NRA wasn't funded by a group of "sporting goods" manufacturers,
>: >but instead was all about the Bill of Rights they would be denouncing
>: >the gov't ownership of land instead of promoting its use for their own
>: >uses.  Oh, and don't forget about keeping it open for hunting so the
>: >"shooting sports consumers" can consume the sporting goods.

>: My but you are a cynical bastard this morning. No coffee before
>: posting? Im not a "sporting goods" manufacture and my payments and
>: donations fund the NRA, along with the other 4.5 million members.

>Hmmm... You been spying on me?  How did you know I was a "cynical
>bastard" ;)  I used to be a an NRA member and came very close to becoming
>a life member back when it only cost $200.  And I shouldn't be so down on
>the NRA.  Gunner, you wouldn't claim the NRA to 100% perfect and I guess
>I'm just picking at the scabs. :/

I went Life many years ago..and you are correct. There are days when I
want my money back.

Quote:

>: >Zoning wasn't contested when the NRA members were protecting their
>: >house values but suddenly, now it's an issue?
>: Zoning wasn't contested because they didn't propose bulldozing their
>: homes flat like they want to do with the range.

>Where were they when the cabins were being bulldozed flat?
>Would they have been on the side thinking that "cool, more hunting and
>shooting space"  They as a group, have supported zoning laws all along
>and now it's turned around to bite them and they are calling foul.
>Sorry but it's too late to fool me into believing them now. :/

Most folks didnt know about those cabins, like most folks dont know
about that range. And of course you are correct..apathy sucks.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>: >Zoning sucks, Gov't owning land sucks more and the NRA whining about
>: >the gov't zoning away their stooting range, what do you call that?

>: Legitimate ***?

>From a certain perspective, from another it's asking for their fair
>share of the pie, many being veterans and all.  Too bad the gov't doesn't
>work like that.  You get in bed with the gov't you're gonna get screwed,
>they climbed in bed thinking they had a cozy relationship and then...

>"save our piece of welfare from the gov't hatchet men"

>: Have some coffee, and mellow out.
>: Gunner

>Oh man I wish it was that easy! :)
>Being mellow and being a libertarian is mutually exclusive. :/

Hey.Im mellow as hell. I save my venom for the net <G>

Quote:

>: >Alvin in AZ (didn't say I was smart, just said I was a libertarian)
>: >ps- if I was smart I'd shut the hell up :)

>: Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley,***d and
>: ***d with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman
>: explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"

>Sure enough! :)

>Alvin in AZ

Be well

Gunner

Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley,***d and
***d with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"

 
 
 

OT- Help Save Ben Avery Shooting Facility!

Post by jim roze » Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:23:07



Quote:
>Question..just how much land in Arizona is public..ie government owned
>or controlled land?

Dern good question.  Unfortunately the answer is going to
be academic, because there's no way they will ever give
or sell it to any citizen.  In the first place it's managed
in public trust, and those who manage it are required
*by* *law* to extract the maximum monetary value from
the land, with that money going to the state to fund
various programs.  

This is the way AZ was set up, they *ain't* gonna change
it.  Folks can try to change the law, it's a democracy,
eh?   But I would suggest you try something easy first,
like abolishing the IRS.   :^)

Jim

===================================
      please reply to:
JRR(zero) at watson dot ibm dot com
===================================

 
 
 

OT- Help Save Ben Avery Shooting Facility!

Post by Jeffry Johnsto » Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:13:34


: Hint..the shooters are tax payers too. Not to mention paying more than
: their fair share of Pittman Robertson Fund taxes among other taxes
: which are earmarked for exactly that..range funding. They pay their
: way.

I feel their pain. :)  No kidding.
It doesn't work that way tho. :/
There is overhead to pay for (read: bureaucrats aren't cheap).

: Question..just how much land in Arizona is public..ie government
: owned or controlled land?
: Be well
: Gunner

I don't know, less than 13% is private land is the only number I know.
Their favorite trick is to control what you do on your private land
if you're adjacent to state and especially BLM land.  They are also
very busy hassling you out of it and have many ways to do that too.

When dealing with them on a personal basis, I can't help but get the
impression everytime that they fall into one or both catagories...

Envious that they don't own a ranch since they know more.
Know that ranchers are evil since they over grazed the west.

If someone backed their truck up to your yard and dumped raw sewage in
it you would take a picture and take them to court and at least get the
mess cleaned up and if you are lucky, then some.

If you owned a river same thing.  The problem is no one owns the rivers or
the public lands.  The over grazing happened "back when" the land belonged
to no one.  A guy put out 6 head for free.  A neighbor figures he can too
etc.  The private land is in good shape, even better sometimes than "back
when".  Private land ownership works and it's our basis of freedom.

A new neighbor moved in from Michigan.  He filled the wash running through
his land with dirt and ***ly pear etc.  I tried talking to him about it
but he is a master of denial and avoidance.  "I never saw water run
through there"  "you ain't been here long enough to see a 1+1/2" rain in
10 minutes yet"  Anyway the road turned into a ditch and we got that wash
put back like it was before.  No big deal.  We got four rains like that
this year he'd never seen anything like it.  BTW, Jeff and my girl friend
nick named him "the screamer". :)

IMO, they should move off that public land then raise hell over all gov't
land ownership.  But that ain't gonna happen, like religion just a bunch
of wishful thinking. :)

Alvin in AZ