SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

Post by croq » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:04:02



Hi Folks,

Here I am, stripping down the 16" SB for a refurb.  2300# of parts strewn
across the shop floor.  I get to the head stock and pull the bearing caps,
yank the spindle and find no bearings.  All I see are scraped lands running
parallel to the spindle bore.  There is the felt wick in the hole at the
bottom but no bearings.  The parts manual says yea to bearings, the picture
shows a bearing, everyone talks about bearings, so where are mine?

Also, on the spindle bearing surface, about half of it has some scratching.
I can just knock that down with my angle grinder?  (kidding)  Is it
recommended to grind the surface a few thousandths, bore the spindle and
then
insert bearings?  Or is this the point that lathes get scrapped and that's
why I have mine?

I also noticed that the back side of the bearing cap had more shim than the
front, is that acceptable?  I thought it was preferable to shim evenly.

While I have your ear, I am removing the 60 years of goop from the bed.  I'd
like to use a chemical process but I can not find a hot tank big enough.
So, anyone have a clue if lye/water will strip off the paint and plastic
filler.  Like the vinegar rust removal process, is it necessary to avoid
having the metal half in/out of the solution?  I'd like to use a steel drum
and dip
each end rather than weld two drums together and split the side open.

Thanks!
C

 
 
 

SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

Post by Jon Elso » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:03:52


Quote:

> Hi Folks,

> Here I am, stripping down the 16" SB for a refurb.  2300# of parts strewn
> across the shop floor.  I get to the head stock and pull the bearing caps,
> yank the spindle and find no bearings.  All I see are scraped lands running
> parallel to the spindle bore.  There is the felt wick in the hole at the
> bottom but no bearings.  The parts manual says yea to bearings, the picture
> shows a bearing, everyone talks about bearings, so where are mine?

Yikes!  With the caps on, is the spindle rolling around in a big gap where
the bearings are supposed to be?  These scraped lands, what is the material?
If it looks like pewter (or solder) then those ARE the bearings, probably
Babbit of some variety.

Quote:
> Also, on the spindle bearing surface, about half of it has some scratching.
> I can just knock that down with my angle grinder?  (kidding)  Is it
> recommended to grind the surface a few thousandths, bore the spindle and
> then
> insert bearings?  Or is this the point that lathes get scrapped and that's
> why I have mine?

If the grooves in the spindle are not big, some people leave them.  If they
are not deep, you can regrind the spindle, but you'd need to have the spindle
perfectly centered before starting.  It can be done on a lathe with a toolpost
grinder.

I suspect SB may have bearing inserts for it.  If not, you might go to a Diesel

repair shop, and see if they know of bearings about the right size.  If not,
you can probably make the bearing liners from brass shim stock, and pour
new babbit.  You have to have the right tools so you can verify that the
spindle is held perfectly in line with the bed before pouring the babbit.

Jon

 
 
 

SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

Post by James Wilki » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 22:14:56



Quote:
> Hi Folks,

> Here I am, stripping down the 16" SB for a refurb.  2300# of parts strewn
> across the shop floor.  I get to the head stock and pull the bearing caps,
> yank the spindle and find no bearings.  All I see are scraped lands running
> parallel to the spindle bore.  There is the felt wick in the hole at the
> bottom but no bearings.  The parts manual says yea to bearings, the picture
> shows a bearing, everyone talks about bearings, so where are mine?

I just finished reading both the 1942 SB and Sheldon's versions of How
to Run a Lathe, from Lindsay. One of them stated that cast iron
bearings were sometimes used for high-speed lathes since bronze is
good only up to 1200RPM. There was a brief description of the
Superfinishing process invented by Chrysler.

Quote:
> While I have your ear, I am removing the 60 years of goop from the bed.  I'd
> like to use a chemical process but I can not find a hot tank big enough...

I used 5F5 covered with plastic sheeting, or Ziplock bags for the
smaller parts. It cuts through the original SB paint and filler
nicely. Avoid the methylene chloride fumes and WEAR *** GLOVES!

jw

 
 
 

SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

Post by Brian Evan » Sat, 26 Jan 2002 05:18:08


My SB 16" is 1939, so 63 years old and has scraped in bronze bearings in the
spindle - not the same as the later ones, and I think that the cross-over to
the later bearings was just about 1940 or so.  There are just bronze liners
to the bearing caps and saddles in the headstock, and the only adjustment is
by scraping and shims.  Mind you, the oiling on mine is by drip cups on top
of the bearing caps, no felt wicks to oil cups on the sides of the
headstock.  If you lathe is actually 60 years old, it may be a transition
design or something.

Brian


Quote:

> > Hi Folks,

> > Here I am, stripping down the 16" SB for a refurb.  2300# of parts
strewn
> > across the shop floor.  I get to the head stock and pull the bearing
caps,
> > yank the spindle and find no bearings.  All I see are scraped lands
running
> > parallel to the spindle bore.  There is the felt wick in the hole at the
> > bottom but no bearings.  The parts manual says yea to bearings, the
picture
> > shows a bearing, everyone talks about bearings, so where are mine?

> I just finished reading both the 1942 SB and Sheldon's versions of How
> to Run a Lathe, from Lindsay. One of them stated that cast iron
> bearings were sometimes used for high-speed lathes since bronze is
> good only up to 1200RPM. There was a brief description of the
> Superfinishing process invented by Chrysler.

> > While I have your ear, I am removing the 60 years of goop from the bed.
I'd
> > like to use a chemical process but I can not find a hot tank big
enough...

> I used 5F5 covered with plastic sheeting, or Ziplock bags for the
> smaller parts. It cuts through the original SB paint and filler
> nicely. Avoid the methylene chloride fumes and WEAR *** GLOVES!

> jw

 
 
 

SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

Post by Brian Evan » Sat, 26 Jan 2002 05:36:48


I just wrote a short treatise on these old style SB 16" bearings yesterday
for someone else, and emailed it, not posted to RCM.  Here it is, in case it
helps at all:
Quote:
-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 2:11 PM
To: Steven Horace K Jr SPOR
Subject: Re: SB lathe instructions

damn, that was at least three years ago!  And the instructions were in my
shop!  It's possible I still have them, but not very likely.

Here's the edited version.

The bearing nearest the spindle I call the front bearing, the other bearing
is the back bearing.

On my lathe, the front bearing cap is held on with four capscrews that
fasten the cap to the saddle, with shims to create a variable amount of
clearance in the vertical plane.  The rear bearing cap is similar, may have
only two capscrews, and additionally has a thrust bearing that is
adjustable by rotation.  What you're aiming for is about .001" play in any
plane, when measured with a dial indicator, and putting reasonable pressure
on the spindle.  you need to definitely overcome any residual oil left in
the bearings, so i try to get about 100 pounds of force on the spindle in
six directions - up, down, left, right and in/out.  You're looking for
about a thou of play when you go from hard down to hard up, etc.  I just
take off the chuck and stick a big bar in the through hole, and put
pressure on it.

These bearings were scraped in when fitted at the factory.  If fitting new
bearings, you have to use blueing to establish the rubbing points.  the way
that I did this was to remove the spindle from the lathe, and bench fit the
caps.  I put blueing on the caps, rubbed them on the spindle, and found
that they were tight at the parting line - horizontal clearance was low on
the front bearing only.  This bearing had no scraping marks, so I decided
that it must have been replaced at some time as it's beyond reason that a
60 year old well used lathe would have survived with too tight bearings
that were in perfect shape for so long!  I scraped them using a wood
scraper and got the clearance better.  Did the same thing to the saddle
bearings, and reassembled putting in shims to get the desired vertical
play.  Set the thrust bearing by rotating it to get about .001" clearance
.  Found that the lathe ran better, but would still seize up at high
speed.  I examined the bearings and thought that the front bearings had
been changed, and had a sharp edge at the parting line of the saddle
bearing which I thought would scrape the oil off as the spindle spun.  I
scraped a fairly large chamfer (1/8") on this edge to encourage the oil to
stay on the spindle.  I also decided that a little more clearance in the
thrust bearing would be fine, as any tool pressure tends to push it one way
or the other, and I opened that up a tiny amount.  For better or worse, I
don't torque the bolts very tightly - I frankly don't notice any difference
so I leave them nicely snug but probably not more than 10 ft pounds - saves
me making up a bunch of shims to figure out how much I need after torquing.

I have drip cups on top of the caps, and I tend to set them to flow a drip
every second or two.  this puts a lot of oil through in a day, and I would
normally top up every second day or so.  If I forget and leave the taps
open over night, they are totally empty in the morning.  I've been using
10w30 motor oil, but I'll try some 0W mobil one and see what it does.

Hope this helps.  Just understanding that the front bearings at least were
probably new, and that they need to be fitted by scraping essentially gave
me all I needed to do the job - it's not rocket science!  Ping me back if I
can help at all.  I'll look for the sheet.

Brian


>Brian, was reading your post on RCM about your SB lathe, with old style
>bronze journals.

>I have been trying to help a friend get one like that up and running, and
>would love to get a copy of those instructions.  His is a 9" dated 1926



> My SB 16" is 1939, so 63 years old and has scraped in bronze bearings in
the
> spindle - not the same as the later ones, and I think that the cross-over
to
> the later bearings was just about 1940 or so.  There are just bronze
liners
> to the bearing caps and saddles in the headstock, and the only adjustment
is
> by scraping and shims.  Mind you, the oiling on mine is by drip cups on
top
> of the bearing caps, no felt wicks to oil cups on the sides of the
> headstock.  If you lathe is actually 60 years old, it may be a transition
> design or something.

> Brian




> > > Hi Folks,

> > > Here I am, stripping down the 16" SB for a refurb.  2300# of parts
> strewn
> > > across the shop floor.  I get to the head stock and pull the bearing
> caps,
> > > yank the spindle and find no bearings.  All I see are scraped lands
> running
> > > parallel to the spindle bore.  There is the felt wick in the hole at
the
> > > bottom but no bearings.  The parts manual says yea to bearings, the
> picture
> > > shows a bearing, everyone talks about bearings, so where are mine?

> > I just finished reading both the 1942 SB and Sheldon's versions of How
> > to Run a Lathe, from Lindsay. One of them stated that cast iron
> > bearings were sometimes used for high-speed lathes since bronze is
> > good only up to 1200RPM. There was a brief description of the
> > Superfinishing process invented by Chrysler.

> > > While I have your ear, I am removing the 60 years of goop from the
bed.
> I'd
> > > like to use a chemical process but I can not find a hot tank big
> enough...

> > I used 5F5 covered with plastic sheeting, or Ziplock bags for the
> > smaller parts. It cuts through the original SB paint and filler
> > nicely. Avoid the methylene chloride fumes and WEAR *** GLOVES!

> > jw

 
 
 

SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

Post by jim roze » Sat, 26 Jan 2002 06:28:25



Quote:

>My SB 16" is 1939, so 63 years old and has scraped in bronze bearings in the
>spindle - not the same as the later ones, and I think that the cross-over to
>the later bearings was just about 1940 or so.  There are just bronze liners
>to the bearing caps and saddles in the headstock, and the only adjustment is
>by scraping and shims.  Mind you, the oiling on mine is by drip cups on top
>of the bearing caps, no felt wicks to oil cups on the sides of the
>headstock.  If you lathe is actually 60 years old, it may be a transition
>design or something.

This is one reason I have not commented yet on this thread, I
was pretty sure the bearings described were the older types
rather than the ones I've worked on, with the thinner bronze
shells and the dovetail expander.

Jim

===================================
JRR(zero) at watson dot ibm dot com
===================================

 
 
 

SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

Post by croq » Sat, 26 Jan 2002 07:54:29



Quote:
> I just finished reading both the 1942 SB and Sheldon's versions of How
> to Run a Lathe, from Lindsay. One of them stated that cast iron
> bearings were sometimes used for high-speed lathes since bronze is
> good only up to 1200RPM. There was a brief description of the
> Superfinishing process invented by Chrysler.

This sounds good to me.  I have the most recent revision of "How to run a
lathe" but it only mentions precision bearing inserts.

Quote:

> > While I have your ear, I am removing the 60 years of goop from the bed.
I'd
> > like to use a chemical process but I can not find a hot tank big
enough...

> I used 5F5 covered with plastic sheeting, or Ziplock bags for the
> smaller parts. It cuts through the original SB paint and filler
> nicely. Avoid the methylene chloride fumes and WEAR *** GLOVES!

> jw

I'm not familiar with 5F5, is it equal to Aircraft ***?

Thanks,
C

 
 
 

SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

Post by croq » Sat, 26 Jan 2002 07:54:30



Quote:
> My SB 16" is 1939, so 63 years old and has scraped in bronze bearings in
the
> spindle - not the same as the later ones, and I think that the cross-over
to
> the later bearings was just about 1940 or so.  There are just bronze
liners
> to the bearing caps and saddles in the headstock, and the only adjustment
is
> by scraping and shims.  Mind you, the oiling on mine is by drip cups on
top
> of the bearing caps, no felt wicks to oil cups on the sides of the
> headstock.  If you lathe is actually 60 years old, it may be a transition
> design or something.

> Brian

My lathe was shipped Dec 12, 1941.  The serial card says it was catalog
117-C with headstock 109S.  I've got the oil cups on the side of the head
stock and it looks just like all the other models I have seen except for the
bearings.  The bearing area looks like a female spline with wide lands that
the spindle rides on.  It does not look like any type of bearing would like
that as a seat let alone fit.

I guess I may have to call SB's tech department and see what they know.  I
can hear it now, "Sure we skipped the bearing that year but we put it back
in the next year.  Now we DO have a $4000 retrofit kit for it."

Thanks for all the help, it's much appreciated!
C

 
 
 

SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

Post by Orrin Iseming » Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:16:14


I don't know about the 16" SB, but I do know that for a time SB ran
the spindles of some of the smaller lathes directly on finished holes
in the cast-iron headstock.  No bearing inserts.  You might have a
lathe from that era.

Somewhere, I read an account of a SB lathe rebuild in which the holes
in the headstock were bored out and then sleeved down with bronze
inserts.  If you have no inserts, that's one option for you.

I suppose another fix would have been to bore the headstock round,
again, then chrome plate the spindle bearings to bring them up to fit.

Orrin

Quote:

>Hi Folks,

>Here I am, stripping down the 16" SB for a refurb.  2300# of parts strewn
>across the shop floor.  I get to the head stock and pull the bearing caps,
>yank the spindle and find no bearings.  All I see are scraped lands running
>parallel to the spindle bore.  There is the felt wick in the hole at the
>bottom but no bearings.  The parts manual says yea to bearings, the picture
>shows a bearing, everyone talks about bearings, so where are mine?

>Also, on the spindle bearing surface, about half of it has some scratching.
>I can just knock that down with my angle grinder?  (kidding)  Is it
>recommended to grind the surface a few thousandths, bore the spindle and
>then
>insert bearings?  Or is this the point that lathes get scrapped and that's
>why I have mine?

>I also noticed that the back side of the bearing cap had more shim than the
>front, is that acceptable?  I thought it was preferable to shim evenly.

>While I have your ear, I am removing the 60 years of goop from the bed.  I'd
>like to use a chemical process but I can not find a hot tank big enough.
>So, anyone have a clue if lye/water will strip off the paint and plastic
>filler.  Like the vinegar rust removal process, is it necessary to avoid
>having the metal half in/out of the solution?  I'd like to use a steel drum
>and dip
>each end rather than weld two drums together and split the side open.

>Thanks!
>C

 
 
 

SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

Post by Jon Elso » Sun, 27 Jan 2002 05:36:05


Quote:

> I don't know about the 16" SB, but I do know that for a time SB ran
> the spindles of some of the smaller lathes directly on finished holes
> in the cast-iron headstock.  No bearing inserts.  You might have a
> lathe from that era.

> Somewhere, I read an account of a SB lathe rebuild in which the holes
> in the headstock were bored out and then sleeved down with bronze
> inserts.  If you have no inserts, that's one option for you.

> I suppose another fix would have been to bore the headstock round,
> again, then chrome plate the spindle bearings to bring them up to fit.

Huh?  A steel spindle running on a hard chrome bearing?  I don't think
that would work.  Generally, for a steel journal, you want a significantly
softer material for the bearing.  Babbit or bronze might be the most
appropriate repair materials.

Jon

 
 
 

SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

Post by Trevor Jone » Sun, 27 Jan 2002 10:25:56


Quote:

> > I suppose another fix would have been to bore the headstock round,
> > again, then chrome plate the spindle bearings to bring them up to fit.

> Huh?  A steel spindle running on a hard chrome bearing?  I don't think
> that would work.  Generally, for a steel journal, you want a significantly
> softer material for the bearing.  Babbit or bronze might be the most
> appropriate repair materials.

> Jon

 I read that to mean that you would bore the cast iron to make it
round,and plate the bearing area of the spindle with hard chrome to
build it up to the required dimension.
 Hard chrome on cast iron makes a pretty good bearing,as I understand
it.

 Cheers
  Trevor Jones

 
 
 

SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

Post by croq » Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:15:04



Quote:
> I don't know about the 16" SB, but I do know that for a time SB ran
> the spindles of some of the smaller lathes directly on finished holes
> in the cast-iron headstock.  No bearing inserts.  You might have a
> lathe from that era.

> Somewhere, I read an account of a SB lathe rebuild in which the holes
> in the headstock were bored out and then sleeved down with bronze
> inserts.  If you have no inserts, that's one option for you.

> I suppose another fix would have been to bore the headstock round,
> again, then chrome plate the spindle bearings to bring them up to fit.

> Orrin

Hmm, I like that idea, minimal scraping on the cast iron journal then chrome
the spindle surface.  How thick can you go with chrome?

Thanks,
C

 
 
 

SB?'s, spindle bearings, want to point to them for me?

Post by Orrin Iseming » Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:28:18


That, I cannot say.  Check with your local machine shop.  

We had a plating shop, here, who did lots of that work but they've
sold out, now.  Otherwise, I'd check with them.   One of their biggest
customers was an ammunition manufacturer that would plate their dies
as they wore down.  They did this on a routine basis, just like
changing the oil every so often in your car engine.  

Perhaps you could post that question to this newsgroup.

Orrin

Quote:



>> I don't know about the 16" SB, but I do know that for a time SB ran
>> the spindles of some of the smaller lathes directly on finished holes
>> in the cast-iron headstock.  No bearing inserts.  You might have a
>> lathe from that era.

>> Somewhere, I read an account of a SB lathe rebuild in which the holes
>> in the headstock were bored out and then sleeved down with bronze
>> inserts.  If you have no inserts, that's one option for you.

>> I suppose another fix would have been to bore the headstock round,
>> again, then chrome plate the spindle bearings to bring them up to fit.

>> Orrin

>Hmm, I like that idea, minimal scraping on the cast iron journal then chrome
>the spindle surface.  How thick can you go with chrome?

>Thanks,
>C