Spindle roller bearing matching

Spindle roller bearing matching

Post by DoN. Nicho » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00



Hello chipmakers,

        I have a question.  You can either post or e-mail me with any
answers, but I will be out of town until late Sunday, so
acknowledgements will be a bit slow, I fear.

        I am getting close to replacing the 2-1/4x8 spindle in my 12x24"
Clausing with a L-00 spindle (from an eBay auction).  It came with a
spare headstock around it, which suffered somewhat in the shipping.

        As a result, I've removed the spindle from the spare headstock,
and will be installing it in the one which came with the lathe.  (Yes, I
could exchange headstocks, but I think this is the better way to go.)

        The bearings at the chuck end are tapered roller bearings.  When
I removed the spindle, the inner race, and the cage of rollers came with
it.  It looks like a major job to get the inner race off the spindle, so
I am looking for an alternative.

        Now -- when I've bought tapered roller bearings in the past (for
rebuilding a differential for a BMW 20002 quite a while ago), the inner
race with the cage and rollers came in one box, and the outer race came
in another box.

        This suggests to me that I can get away with leaving the outer
race from the original spindle in place, and using it with the inner
race and cage from the replacement spindle.

        Does anyone know for sure whether this is a reasonable choice?
If I've got to pull the inner race from the spindle, I'll probably have
to grind it thin and break it, and will need to put in a new bearing
from scratch.  This will also require removing the outer race from the
headstock, of course.

        Thanks in Advance,
                DoN.

--

    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

 
 
 

Spindle roller bearing matching

Post by Ned Simmo » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00


I don't know of any reason you can't do this assuming both components are
in good condition. Even the precision class tapered roller bearings are
ordered as separate pieces. In some cases it even makes sense and is
acceptable to mix a precision cone with a lower grade cup.

If you want to verify this, Timken's tech hotline number is (330)471-
6666. They've been very helpful when I've had questions.

Ned Simmons


says...

Quote:

>    This suggests to me that I can get away with leaving the outer
> race from the original spindle in place, and using it with the inner
> race and cage from the replacement spindle.


 
 
 

Spindle roller bearing matching

Post by Jon Elso » Sat, 22 Apr 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

>         The bearings at the chuck end are tapered roller bearings.  When
> I removed the spindle, the inner race, and the cage of rollers came with
> it.  It looks like a major job to get the inner race off the spindle, so
> I am looking for an alternative.

>         Now -- when I've bought tapered roller bearings in the past (for
> rebuilding a differential for a BMW 20002 quite a while ago), the inner
> race with the cage and rollers came in one box, and the outer race came
> in another box.

Yes, the bearing sets in the 10" and 12" Atlas are the same way.

Quote:
>         This suggests to me that I can get away with leaving the outer
> race from the original spindle in place, and using it with the inner
> race and cage from the replacement spindle.

Should be able to.

Quote:
>         Does anyone know for sure whether this is a reasonable choice?
> If I've got to pull the inner race from the spindle, I'll probably have
> to grind it thin and break it, and will need to put in a new bearing
> from scratch.  This will also require removing the outer race from the
> headstock, of course.

Well, I don't know about the shoulders, and other features of this
spindle.  I was able to remove the old inner races on my Atlas spindle
without a lot of trouble.  the first time I tried to drive it off, I caused
some grit under the chamfer of the bearing to embed itself in the spindle,
and the inner race bound up.  I pushed it back to the original position,
and carefully removed the grit and the rough edges that caused, and
was then able to drive the race off the spindle fairly easily.  I wasn't
planning on re-using these races, but I thought that using a pipe and
a hammer was a reasonable way to push the old race off the spindle.
I would think you could do the same.  You might want to use the
lathe to make a set of bearing driving sleeves BEFORE you take the
lathe apart.

Jon

 
 
 

Spindle roller bearing matching

Post by mulli.. » Sat, 22 Apr 2000 04:00:00




Quote:
>    This suggests to me that I can get away with leaving the outer
> race from the original spindle in place, and using it with the inner
> race and cage from the replacement spindle.

The only argument that could possibly be made against doing this
is the idea that bearings wear together with their mating races, and
somehow you would have accelerated wear or inaccuracy after mixing
two sets that were not together 'from the start.'

But this is strictly conjecture as I've never seen this happen.  I
do know that when I do tapered roller wheel bearings I make it a point
to keep the sets together - but this is probably just magic incantation
and ju-ju.

Just as an experiment, how much would a brand new set of spindle
bearings cost for the machine?  I would be sorely tempted to put in
new (once it is apart) if the number was less than a hundred.  Below
that it would be a sure thing, and above that I would have to do
some soul-searching.  But if this is a nice spindle, and you plan
on using the machine a long time, now would be the hour.

Jim

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 
 
 

Spindle roller bearing matching

Post by metalmau.. » Sat, 22 Apr 2000 04:00:00


Group: rec.crafts.metalworking Date: Thu, Apr 20, 2000, 10:15pm  From:

I would change the cup & the cone on these Timken bearings (excuse the
proper terminology) If I had the $$$. Don't quote me, but I think both
can be purchased for approx. $75.

Do it now and don't be sorry later.

Russ Penrose

-----------------------------------------  
Hello chipmakers,
????????????????I have a question. You
can either post or e-mail me with any answers, but I will be out of town
until late Sunday, so acknowledgements will be a bit slow, I fear.
????????????????I am getting close to
replacing the 2-1/4x8 spindle in my 12x24" Clausing with a L-00 spindle
(from an eBay auction). It came with a spare headstock around it, which
suffered somewhat in the shipping.
????????????????As a result, I've
removed the spindle from the spare headstock, and will be installing it
in the one which came with the lathe. (Yes, I could exchange headstocks,
but I think this is the better way to go.)
????????????????The bearings at the
chuck end are tapered roller bearings. When I removed the spindle, the
inner race, and the cage of rollers came with it. It looks like a major
job to get the inner race off the spindle, so I am looking for an
alternative.
????????????????Now -- when I've bought
tapered roller bearings in the past (for rebuilding a differential for a
BMW 20002 quite a while ago), the inner race with the cage and rollers
came in one box, and the outer race came in another box.
????????????????This suggests to me that
I can get away with leaving the outer race from the original spindle in
place, and using it with the inner race and cage from the replacement
spindle.
????????????????Does anyone know for
sure whether this is a reasonable choice? If I've got to pull the inner
race from the spindle, I'll probably have to grind it thin and break it,
and will need to put in a new bearing from scratch. This will also
require removing the outer race from the headstock, of course.
????????????????Thanks in Advance,
????????????????DoN.
--

938-4564
????My Concertina web page: ? ? ? |
http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
????????--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by
zero ---

Gallery of Machines Machinetool Rebuilders

New & Used,Reconditioned Machines

Russ Penrose

Marathon NY

Part/timeWoodworker

 
 
 

Spindle roller bearing matching

Post by DoN. Nicho » Sat, 22 Apr 2000 04:00:00



Quote:

>I don't know of any reason you can't do this assuming both components are
>in good condition. Even the precision class tapered roller bearings are
>ordered as separate pieces. In some cases it even makes sense and is
>acceptable to mix a precision cone with a lower grade cup.

        Since these are the same grade (just from two different
machines) I don't expect any problems -- however, I do intend to fire up
the stereo zoom microscope to check the races and rollers prior to
re-installing.

Quote:
>If you want to verify this, Timken's tech hotline number is (330)471-
>6666. They've been very helpful when I've had questions.

        I may do exactly that.

        Thanks much,
                DoN.
--

    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

 
 
 

Spindle roller bearing matching

Post by DoN. Nicho » Sat, 22 Apr 2000 04:00:00


Quote:



>>        This suggests to me that I can get away with leaving the outer
>> race from the original spindle in place, and using it with the inner
>> race and cage from the replacement spindle.

>The only argument that could possibly be made against doing this
>is the idea that bearings wear together with their mating races, and
>somehow you would have accelerated wear or inaccuracy after mixing
>two sets that were not together 'from the start.'

        Something to consider -- though with the parts sold as separate
pieces, I'm not sure.

        [ ... ]

Quote:
>Just as an experiment, how much would a brand new set of spindle
>bearings cost for the machine?  I would be sorely tempted to put in
>new (once it is apart) if the number was less than a hundred.  Below
>that it would be a sure thing, and above that I would have to do
>some soul-searching.  But if this is a nice spindle, and you plan
>on using the machine a long time, now would be the hour.

        Well ... a look in the parts sheet for the lathe (after getting
the Clausing part numbers from the manual) shows no listing, which means
that Clausing no longer stocks them.  This means that I would have to
separate an inner race from the spindle to get a part number from it,
and without a large arbor press, I don't think that I can get it off
without damaging/destroying it.  If I had the means to pull the bearing
easily, I would be more likely to plan to install new bearings from the
start.  However, I don't, so I'm going to *try* to make the existing oes
do.  If they start to make noise, it will be time to buy one of the
bottle-jack powered arbor presses and set up for a swap.

        I'll also have to do a creative job of making something to apply
force to the bearings behind the threaded retaining ring for the L-00
chucks, and the captive cover which keeps dirt out of the bearings, and
most of the oil in with the bearings.

        Thanks much,
                DoN.
--

    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

 
 
 

Spindle roller bearing matching

Post by DoN. Nicho » Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:00:00



        [ ... ]

Quote:
>Group: rec.crafts.metalworking Date: Thu, Apr 20, 2000, 10:15pm  From:

>I would change the cup & the cone on these Timken bearings (excuse the
>proper terminology) If I had the $$$. Don't quote me, but I think both
>can be purchased for approx. $75.

        Well ... not from Clausing, at least.  They don't list them at
all in the price list, which indicates that they no longer have them in
stock.  (And until I can separate the cone from the spindle, I can't
determine the whole of the part numbers needed to order from a normal
bearing house.

        The other bearings with similar numbers in Clausing's parts list
go for around $329.00, and I can't even figure out what they fit. :-)

Quote:
>Do it now and don't be sorry later.

        The cup (now that I know the proper term) would be fairly easy
to change out, but the cone would require something which I don't have --
a *serious* arbor press, and fabricating some special supports to press
on the bearing without damaging either the cup designed to seal the oil
in with the bearing, or the locking ring for the L-00 taper which is the
reason for this whole exercise.

        Actually getting in to change things is relatively easy by
comparison, so if it turns out that I need new bearings

        Thanks much,
                DoN.
--

    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

 
 
 

Spindle roller bearing matching

Post by Gary Coffma » Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:00:00



Quote:



>>>    This suggests to me that I can get away with leaving the outer
>>> race from the original spindle in place, and using it with the inner
>>> race and cage from the replacement spindle.

>>The only argument that could possibly be made against doing this
>>is the idea that bearings wear together with their mating races, and
>>somehow you would have accelerated wear or inaccuracy after mixing
>>two sets that were not together 'from the start.'

>    Something to consider -- though with the parts sold as separate
>pieces, I'm not sure.

It may not apply exactly, but valve lifters are sold separately from cams.
Yet once they've been run in an engine you aren't supposed to swap lifters
around. They have to stay with the lobe to which they've mated or you'll
have rapid lobe failure.

Quote:
>    [ ... ]

>>Just as an experiment, how much would a brand new set of spindle
>>bearings cost for the machine?  I would be sorely tempted to put in
>>new (once it is apart) if the number was less than a hundred.  Below
>>that it would be a sure thing, and above that I would have to do
>>some soul-searching.  But if this is a nice spindle, and you plan
>>on using the machine a long time, now would be the hour.

>    Well ... a look in the parts sheet for the lathe (after getting
>the Clausing part numbers from the manual) shows no listing, which means
>that Clausing no longer stocks them.  

I ran into a slightly similar situation with my Jeep pickup. Chrysler no longer
lists the bearing for the front hub. They told me I'd have to change to a new
style hub which uses bearings they do stock. Naturally, the new hub is quite
expensive. I had the old bearing pressed off, took it to the local bearing
house, and found out that it was a common and inexpensive bearing that
they carried on the shelf. Saved me a ton of money.

Quote:
>This means that I would have to
>separate an inner race from the spindle to get a part number from it,
>and without a large arbor press, I don't think that I can get it off
>without damaging/destroying it.  If I had the means to pull the bearing
>easily, I would be more likely to plan to install new bearings from the
>start.  However, I don't, so I'm going to *try* to make the existing oes
>do.  If they start to make noise, it will be time to buy one of the
>bottle-jack powered arbor presses and set up for a swap.

Before I got my own press, I farmed this sort of job out to a shop that
did have the right equipment. It didn't cost much.  But this is a good
excuse to buy a new tool. Right?

Gary

534 Shannon Way     | We break it  |
Lawrenceville, GA   | Guaranteed   |

 
 
 

Spindle roller bearing matching

Post by mulli.. » Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:00:00




Quote:
>    Actually getting in to change things is relatively easy by
> comparison, so if it turns out that I need new bearings

And this of course is the biggest argument against changing them
out now.  They may work just fine for a long time, but you can
get the spindle out with little effort at any time, then you
won't feel bad if it has to come apart for new ones.

By all means shop around a lot - the markup on bearings can be
amazingly huge.  If you can get a part number from the roller
and inner cone, and dimensions from the outside of the outer
cup, then you are armed and dangerous as far as contacting a
bearing supplier.  In fact, I think I still have my SKF catalog
here at home that lists tapered roller bearings.

(hint, post up the dimensions and any part numbers you have)

Part of the difficulty here is getting the correct cross-reference
number so you can go to any manufacturer's parts listing and get
prices.  Although a good bearing supply house can do this for you
as they will have the literature.  As another has suggested,
simply taking the info to a good local automotive/truck supplier
can sometimes do the trick, as they will have a good working
relationship with a manufacturer or higher level distributor.

Good luck - Jim

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 
 
 

Spindle roller bearing matching

Post by DoN. Nicho » Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:00:00




        [ ... ]

Quote:
>>        Something to consider -- though with the parts sold as separate
>>pieces, I'm not sure.

>It may not apply exactly, but valve lifters are sold separately from cams.
>Yet once they've been run in an engine you aren't supposed to swap lifters
>around. They have to stay with the lobe to which they've mated or you'll
>have rapid lobe failure.

        Isn't that sliding friction, not rolling friction?  (It
certainly was on all the lifters that I worked with, though I could
imagine a high-performance one having a ball-bearing roller contacting
the cam's lobes.)

        [ ... ]

Quote:
>>        Well ... a look in the parts sheet for the lathe (after getting
>>the Clausing part numbers from the manual) shows no listing, which means
>>that Clausing no longer stocks them.  

>I ran into a slightly similar situation with my Jeep pickup. Chrysler no longer
>lists the bearing for the front hub. They told me I'd have to change to a new
>style hub which uses bearings they do stock. Naturally, the new hub is quite
>expensive. I had the old bearing pressed off, took it to the local bearing
>house, and found out that it was a common and inexpensive bearing that
>they carried on the shelf. Saved me a ton of money.

        I'm presuming that the bearings are still available from a
bearing shop -- once I know what the right numbers are.

Quote:
>>This means that I would have to
>>separate an inner race from the spindle to get a part number from it,
>>and without a large arbor press, I don't think that I can get it off

        [ ... ]

Quote:
>>do.  If they start to make noise, it will be time to buy one of the
>>bottle-jack powered arbor presses and set up for a swap.

>Before I got my own press, I farmed this sort of job out to a shop that
>did have the right equipment. It didn't cost much.  But this is a good
>excuse to buy a new tool. Right?

        I've now had a local volunteer, should it prove necessary.  I'm
hoping to keep the machine from being down more than a single evening
while I swap the spindles -- then I have to fit new backplates to
several chucks.  (I did pick up a nice Burnard-Pratt 4-jaw with the L-00
mount from eBay, so I can have one chuck to use immediately.)

        Thanks much,
                DoN.
--

    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

 
 
 

Spindle roller bearing matching

Post by DoN. Nicho » Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:00:00


Quote:



>>        Actually getting in to change things is relatively easy by
>> comparison, so if it turns out that I need new bearings

>And this of course is the biggest argument against changing them
>out now.  They may work just fine for a long time, but you can
>get the spindle out with little effort at any time, then you
>won't feel bad if it has to come apart for new ones.

        Agreed.  It is not trivial, but not too difficult, either.  I
think that it will prove easier to do on the headstock on the lathe than
it was on the free-standing headstock from which I got the spindle.  (I
guess that I could exchange headstocks, but I'm not totally certain that
the spindle height will be precisely the same, and with the turret that
makes a difference.)

Quote:
>By all means shop around a lot - the markup on bearings can be
>amazingly huge.  If you can get a part number from the roller
>and inner cone, and dimensions from the outside of the outer
>cup, then you are armed and dangerous as far as contacting a
>bearing supplier.  In fact, I think I still have my SKF catalog
>here at home that lists tapered roller bearings.

>(hint, post up the dimensions and any part numbers you have)

        I will -- once I have access to those numbers and dimensions.
Right now, the cone has its numbers cuddled up to a shoulder and
additional covered by a shield and the lock ring for the L-00 taper.
The cup will be easier to get out, since all I need to do is turn an
adaptor to use with a pulley puller.  (I could drive it out with a brass
drift, but this seems more gentle, and less likely to*** it and damage
the mount.)

Quote:
>Part of the difficulty here is getting the correct cross-reference
>number so you can go to any manufacturer's parts listing and get
>prices.  Although a good bearing supply house can do this for you
>as they will have the literature.  As another has suggested,
>simply taking the info to a good local automotive/truck supplier
>can sometimes do the trick, as they will have a good working
>relationship with a manufacturer or higher level distributor.

        There is a good bearing supply house not too many miles away,
and I will visit them with the bearings from the remainder after the
swap is complete, and after I've had a chance to get the old spindle to
a good arbor press.  (I think that it will be easier to press out the
old spindle, because it doesn't have that big lock ring in the way.)

        Thanks much,
                DoN.
--

    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.FoundCollection.com/
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

 
 
 

Spindle roller bearing matching

Post by Gary Coffma » Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:00:00



Quote:


>>It may not apply exactly, but valve lifters are sold separately from cams.
>>Yet once they've been run in an engine you aren't supposed to swap lifters
>>around. They have to stay with the lobe to which they've mated or you'll
>>have rapid lobe failure.

>    Isn't that sliding friction, not rolling friction?  (It
>certainly was on all the lifters that I worked with, though I could
>imagine a high-performance one having a ball-bearing roller contacting
>the cam's lobes.)

Some high lift cams use roller bearing lifters. I've never heard of ball
bearings being used (but no doubt someone will chime in with an example).

Gary


534 Shannon Way     | We break it  |
Lawrenceville, GA   | Guaranteed   |