Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by strype » Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:29:29



I received a single 7x9 clopay garage door from someone replacing
their door. It has all the hardware and even the installation
instructions. I have been for a week trying to retrofit it to my
12x16 shed.

I have the track installed and can manually move it up or down but
have tried and tried and cant get the torsion spring to work in
helping with raising and lowering the door. I have done it countless
times all that ends up happening is the wire on the pulleys on both
ends end up birdnesting and going everywhere. Yesterday it actually
helped bull it up before it finally birdnested.

What can I do? Would having one pulley slightly higher than the other
cause this problem? I have had to do the best job I could with the
limited room I have.

Another thing I noticed is when I manually raise the door, the bottom
roller seems to be in a different place on the track on one side
verses the other. I measured the tracks on both sides though and they
seem to be the same height.

One last thing when I put it all the way up the end of the door just
barely touched a support on my shed roof. Just enough where the door
wants to come down rather than stay in the upright position. Is there
something I can add or do to keep the door up?

Anyway I appreciate any help as this is driving me nuts and my wife is
tired of me spending all my time on this!

 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by RoyJ » Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:29:24


You either don't have things installed square or enough tension on the
cables. When the door is fully up, there still should be some residual
tension. That is what keeps it in the upright position. For install, the
door is set in place on it's track, then you start cranking the torsion
spring(s)

Big warning here: Torsion springs are *** to tighten or loosen. You
need to have the correct size of bars (various mfgs use different
sizes), the bars need to be good cold rolled (the hot rolled may bend at
the wrong time), and you need to know what you are doing. Failure to
heed these leads to a spinning bar and no teeth left in your jaw.

It also sounds like you may have mixed up the support brackets on the
track. The track is at a very slight angle to the door frame so that it
does not rub all the way down. The hinges match, each hinge up has a
slightly longer throw than the one below it. The door runs freely until
the last few inches, then moves out to contact the door stops.

And you did figure out that the door is installed in the frame with all
the functional checkout, THEN you add the door stops to seal the opening?

If the door hits a joist anywhere, you don't have enough clearance. If
it is at the back, you can drop the track an inch or two without
problems. If it is right near the door opening, you have a problem.
There are low clearance kits that have two extra tracks or use a
'flipper' mechanism. Both work, both are fairly expensive to buy as an
option.

Quote:

> I received a single 7x9 clopay garage door from someone replacing
> their door. It has all the hardware and even the installation
> instructions. I have been for a week trying to retrofit it to my
> 12x16 shed.

> I have the track installed and can manually move it up or down but
> have tried and tried and cant get the torsion spring to work in
> helping with raising and lowering the door. I have done it countless
> times all that ends up happening is the wire on the pulleys on both
> ends end up birdnesting and going everywhere. Yesterday it actually
> helped bull it up before it finally birdnested.

> What can I do? Would having one pulley slightly higher than the other
> cause this problem? I have had to do the best job I could with the
> limited room I have.

> Another thing I noticed is when I manually raise the door, the bottom
> roller seems to be in a different place on the track on one side
> verses the other. I measured the tracks on both sides though and they
> seem to be the same height.

> One last thing when I put it all the way up the end of the door just
> barely touched a support on my shed roof. Just enough where the door
> wants to come down rather than stay in the upright position. Is there
> something I can add or do to keep the door up?

> Anyway I appreciate any help as this is driving me nuts and my wife is
> tired of me spending all my time on this!


 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by strype » Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:41:14



Quote:
> You either don't have things installed square or enough tension on the
> cables. When the door is fully up, there still should be some residual
> tension. That is what keeps it in the upright position. For install, the
> door is set in place on it's track, then you start cranking the torsion
> spring(s)

> Big warning here: Torsion springs are *** to tighten or loosen. You
> need to have the correct size of bars (various mfgs use different
> sizes), the bars need to be good cold rolled (the hot rolled may bend at
> the wrong time), and you need to know what you are doing. Failure to
> heed these leads to a spinning bar and no teeth left in your jaw.

> It also sounds like you may have mixed up the support brackets on the
> track. The track is at a very slight angle to the door frame so that it
> does not rub all the way down. The hinges match, each hinge up has a
> slightly longer throw than the one below it. The door runs freely until
> the last few inches, then moves out to contact the door stops.

> And you did figure out that the door is installed in the frame with all
> the functional checkout, THEN you add the door stops to seal the opening?

Forgive my ignorance, but what are you calling "door stops"?

This building is a metal framed building by the way. I am doing the
best I can. I may not have wound the spring tightly enough. I also
know that one pulley is about an inch lower than the other. And for
osme reason the door looks a little***eyed at the fully up position
but when I measure it it is ok.

 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by RoyJ » Thu, 01 May 2008 02:01:40


Door stops: On a wood framed door, you start with the raw 2x4 (or
whatever) frame, then nail up some 1x6 stock as the finished surface
(casing) between the inner edge of the building and the outer sheathing.
Apply siding, brick molding and any other finishing material you want.
The garage door is installed inside the building but the framing is
never quite right so there are gaps between the door and the casing,
1/4" to 1/2" gaps are quite normal. As the very last thing, the 1/2" x2"
door stops are nailed in place with the door down. These are thin enough
to take up any imperfections and make it weather tight. A metal shelled
building will need the same strips in metal, check with your dealer.

Metal framed buildings: We have metal framed buildings (prefabbed metal
  support beams with metal siding) and pole barns (wood posts with metal
siding). Same difference, they tend to be not very square. If the door
looks***eyed, it is likely that something is not square. Take some
diagonal measurements to see what's going on.

The garage door is installed completely inside the building inner wall.
It works best if all is square and flat, the door tracks can accommodate
some not so flat conditions, tends to bind a bit but it works. It also
works if the opening is not square, you just use the door stops to fit
it up tight. Looks funny but it works.

Quote:


>> You either don't have things installed square or enough tension on the
>> cables. When the door is fully up, there still should be some residual
>> tension. That is what keeps it in the upright position. For install, the
>> door is set in place on it's track, then you start cranking the torsion
>> spring(s)

>> Big warning here: Torsion springs are *** to tighten or loosen. You
>> need to have the correct size of bars (various mfgs use different
>> sizes), the bars need to be good cold rolled (the hot rolled may bend at
>> the wrong time), and you need to know what you are doing. Failure to
>> heed these leads to a spinning bar and no teeth left in your jaw.

>> It also sounds like you may have mixed up the support brackets on the
>> track. The track is at a very slight angle to the door frame so that it
>> does not rub all the way down. The hinges match, each hinge up has a
>> slightly longer throw than the one below it. The door runs freely until
>> the last few inches, then moves out to contact the door stops.

>> And you did figure out that the door is installed in the frame with all
>> the functional checkout, THEN you add the door stops to seal the opening?

> Forgive my ignorance, but what are you calling "door stops"?

> This building is a metal framed building by the way. I am doing the
> best I can. I may not have wound the spring tightly enough. I also
> know that one pulley is about an inch lower than the other. And for
> osme reason the door looks a little***eyed at the fully up position
> but when I measure it it is ok.

 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by strype » Thu, 01 May 2008 02:29:30



Quote:
> Door stops: On a wood framed door, you start with the raw 2x4 (or
> whatever) frame, then nail up some 1x6 stock as the finished surface
> (casing) between the inner edge of the building and the outer sheathing.
> Apply siding, brick molding and any other finishing material you want.
> The garage door is installed inside the building but the framing is
> never quite right so there are gaps between the door and the casing,
> 1/4" to 1/2" gaps are quite normal. As the very last thing, the 1/2" x2"
> door stops are nailed in place with the door down. These are thin enough
> to take up any imperfections and make it weather tight. A metal shelled
> building will need the same strips in metal, check with your dealer.

> Metal framed buildings: We have metal framed buildings (prefabbed metal
> ? support beams with metal siding) and pole barns (wood posts with metal
> siding). Same difference, they tend to be not very square. If the door
> looks***eyed, it is likely that something is not square. Take some
> diagonal measurements to see what's going on.

> The garage door is installed completely inside the building inner wall.
> It works best if all is square and flat, the door tracks can accommodate
> some not so flat conditions, tends to bind a bit but it works. It also
> works if the opening is not square, you just use the door stops to fit
> it up tight. Looks funny but it works.



> >> You either don't have things installed square or enough tension on the
> >> cables. When the door is fully up, there still should be some residual
> >> tension. That is what keeps it in the upright position. For install, the
> >> door is set in place on it's track, then you start cranking the torsion
> >> spring(s)

> >> Big warning here: Torsion springs are *** to tighten or loosen. You
> >> need to have the correct size of bars (various mfgs use different
> >> sizes), the bars need to be good cold rolled (the hot rolled may bend at
> >> the wrong time), and you need to know what you are doing. Failure to
> >> heed these leads to a spinning bar and no teeth left in your jaw.

> >> It also sounds like you may have mixed up the support brackets on the
> >> track. The track is at a very slight angle to the door frame so that it
> >> does not rub all the way down. The hinges match, each hinge up has a
> >> slightly longer throw than the one below it. The door runs freely until
> >> the last few inches, then moves out to contact the door stops.

> >> And you did figure out that the door is installed in the frame with all
> >> the functional checkout, THEN you add the door stops to seal the opening?

> > Forgive my ignorance, but what are you calling "door stops"?

> > This building is a metal framed building by the way. I am doing the
> > best I can. I may not have wound the spring tightly enough. I also
> > know that one pulley is about an inch lower than the other. And for
> > osme reason the door looks a little***eyed at the fully up position
> > but when I measure it it is ok.- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

So the "door stops? are the weatherstriping I bought with the edges
that cover the gaps? I hav enot installed those, I was going to do
that last.

I think someone was on to something when they said some of the
hardware may not be right. The "latches" that attach each section to
the next, I noticed the manual called number 1 hinge number 2 hinge
etc. But to me the picture looked no different in terms of number 2 vs
number 3.

 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by Bruce L. Bergma » Thu, 01 May 2008 03:01:28


On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 05:29:29 -0700 (PDT), stryped

Quote:

>I received a single 7x9 clopay garage door from someone replacing
>their door. It has all the hardware and even the installation
>instructions. I have been for a week trying to retrofit it to my
>12x16 shed.

>I have the track installed and can manually move it up or down but
>have tried and tried and cant get the torsion spring to work in
>helping with raising and lowering the door. I have done it countless
>times all that ends up happening is the wire on the pulleys on both
>ends end up birdnesting and going everywhere. Yesterday it actually
>helped bull it up before it finally birdnested.

>What can I do? Would having one pulley slightly higher than the other
>cause this problem? I have had to do the best job I could with the
>limited room I have.

>Another thing I noticed is when I manually raise the door, the bottom
>roller seems to be in a different place on the track on one side
>verses the other. I measured the tracks on both sides though and they
>seem to be the same height.

>One last thing when I put it all the way up the end of the door just
>barely touched a support on my shed roof. Just enough where the door
>wants to come down rather than stay in the upright position. Is there
>something I can add or do to keep the door up?

>Anyway I appreciate any help as this is driving me nuts and my wife is
>tired of me spending all my time on this!

The aircraft cable isn't just winding onto a plain spool, it's
following a varying radius tracking snail groove so that the force
goes down as the door goes up and approaches the end of the run, to
equalize the assistance needed.  Otherwise you'd have to fight to get
it started and then fight to slow it down at the top.

  The track has to be square and level in the doorway, there can't be
any obstructions to full travel, and the spring crossbar has to be at
the right height and square to the door.

   If the door gets***eyed and the aircraft cable on one side goes
slack it will bird-nest on you every time.  Same thing if the cable
drums are not in line with the pull points on the door, that track can
only handle a few degrees of misalignment before the cable derails
from the groove.

  If you've got structural parts in the way at the ceiling level,
you'll have to move them.  Make another brace farther back, or put a
crossbar under the door path (that will clear the door) to take the
load the brace used to.  Those steel sheds usually are engineered
really close to the edge on strength, don't start removing without
replacing.

  And as to getting the spring crossbar mounted in the right place,
you might have to take down the door and remount it after using 2X8 or
2X12 lumber on the inside to simulate the normal garage door 4X8 or
4X12 header beam and 2X6 vertical to simulate the 4X6 king posts, and
take angle brackets and concrete anchors to transfer the weight to the
slab.  (If no slab, dig a hole and make some sort of a concrete
footing there, same reason.)

  May need to have 1X planks or plywood filler shims cut to go around
the seams of the steel door header and posts on the inside, so the
'new' header and posts are flat, level and square...  

  I'll bet you tried to modify the mounting locations to pick up on
the steel shed skin & seams, and that simply isn't going to work right
- and then the skin is going to fail around the brackets because it
wasn't meant to have those point loads there.  Adding the wood will
spread the loads out over a much larger area and to many small screws.

  WARNING:  Be VERY careful when installing or removing that tension
spring - it can and will take your head clean off if you***up.
You won't like it, and SWMBO won't be too thrilled either.

     --<< Bruce >>--

 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by Bruce L. Bergma » Thu, 01 May 2008 03:44:30


On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:29:30 -0700 (PDT), stryped

Quote:

>I think someone was on to something when they said some of the
>hardware may not be right. The "latches" that attach each section to
>the next, I noticed the manual called number 1 hinge number 2 hinge
>etc. But to me the picture looked no different in terms of number 2 vs
>number 3.

  It's not much of a difference - maybe 1/8" - 3/16" between adjacent
hinges, that's why they number them so they end up in the right order.

  The track is maybe 3/4" to 1" further out from the door jamb at the
top than the bottom - the instructions should have that number.  As
the door comes down, it also goes out a bit, and about a foot from the
bottom should start contacting the seals at the sides.

  There's a method to this madness, which is where reading and
understanding the instructions does come in handy.

  The only reason you don't see the pros standing there reading the
instruction book is we've installed that particular piece of gear a
few (hundred) times - but when I get a new model I STILL look through
the instruction book for any new surprises they may have added.

    --<< Bruce >>--

 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by Lew Hartswic » Thu, 01 May 2008 06:47:52


Quote:

> Forgive my ignorance, but what are you calling "door stops"?

> This building is a metal framed building by the way. I am doing the
> best I can. I may not have wound the spring tightly enough. I also
> know that one pulley is about an inch lower than the other. And for
> osme reason the door looks a little***eyed at the fully up position
> but when I measure it it is ok.

It would help if you were somewhere near a person that has doen it.
I installed one for son-in-law a few years ago. I'm in Albuquerque,
are you anywhere close?
    ...lew...
 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by Richard J Kinc » Thu, 01 May 2008 12:47:34


Quote:
Bruce L. Bergman writes:
> The aircraft cable isn't just winding onto a plain spool, it's
> following a varying radius tracking snail groove so that the force
> goes down as the door goes up and approaches the end of the run, to
> equalize the assistance needed.

You've got it quite inside out.  The spiral drums create a net *constant*
force by mirroring the torsion decline as the springs unwind.  And these
are not used on a standard residential door, since the spring torsion and
weight to be lifted both decline linearly as the door goes up (consider why
those are both the case).  Spiral drums are used on straight-lift
commercial doors.
 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by Richard J Kinc » Thu, 01 May 2008 12:49:48


Quote:
stryped writes:
> What can I do?

First thing is to understand the principles of how these doors work.  See
my essay at:

  http://www.truetex.com/garage.htm

 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by cavelamb himsel » Thu, 01 May 2008 13:12:24


Quote:

> stryped writes:

>>What can I do?

> First thing is to understand the principles of how these doors work.  See
> my essay at:

>   http://www.truetex.com/garage.htm

I'm so curious I have to ask...

     What brought all that on???

Richard
--
(remove the X to email)

Now just why the HELL do I have to press 1 for English?
                                             John Wayne

 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by Richard J Kinc » Thu, 01 May 2008 15:13:37


Quote:
cavelamb himself writes:
> What brought all that on?

Years of updating from thousands of people writing me to say they had done
it after reading it.  Refined from the bitter scrutiny and mucho angry mail
from the garage door repair industry.  Comments from a few helpful pros.  
Sort of an extended peer-review.
 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by cavelamb himsel » Thu, 01 May 2008 16:09:01


Quote:

> cavelamb himself writes:

>>What brought all that on?

> Years of updating from thousands of people writing me to say they had done
> it after reading it.  Refined from the bitter scrutiny and mucho angry mail
> from the garage door repair industry.  Comments from a few helpful pros.  
> Sort of an extended peer-review.

It's a piece of work, Richard!

Ya done good.

Richard
--
(remove the X to email)

Now just why the HELL do I have to press 1 for English?
                                             John Wayne

 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by Karl Townsen » Thu, 01 May 2008 20:10:06


Quote:
> First thing is to understand the principles of how these doors
> work. See  my essay at:
>  http://www.FoundCollection.com/

I bet you spent longer on that essay than it took to repair your garage
door. Say, my 17 year old torsion door needs retightening for the ump***th
time.  Needs it every year now. Its the really standard 7'x16' door. Is
there really no way to order a replacement without unwinding it?
Karl
 
 
 

Garage door help! (Off topic but begging for help!)

Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburg » Thu, 01 May 2008 21:19:26




Quote:
>> First thing is to understand the principles of how these doors
>> work. See  my essay at:
>>  http://www.FoundCollection.com/

> I bet you spent longer on that essay than it took to repair your
> garage door. Say, my 17 year old torsion door needs retightening for
> the ump***th time.  Needs it every year now. Its the really standard
> 7'x16' door. Is there really no way to order a replacement without
> unwinding it? Karl

Holy cripes!  Yeah... he's an engineer... It takes longer to read that
diatribe than to teach a four*** year old daughter how to rebuild the
whole door!

I solved the replacement parts issue in one fell swoop.  I bought a DIY
door kit from Lowes.  They carry all the parts, crossed by model and
size.  Springs are cheap, and on the shelf.  They have no problem selling
to the end-user.

In fact, the door I bought came with two stupid plastic-n-steel worm gear
affairs that cannot "let go" accidentally.  I tossed them in the junk box
for a future project, and installed the springs normally with manual
winding rods.  Otherwise, the springs are impossible to replace without
dismantling _way_ too much hardware.  Without the worms, it's just two
parts and off.

By the way... don't engineers know about paint and its virtues?

LLoyd