OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by PLAlbrec » Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:08:37



Frank Carbone wrote

Quote:
>>Hmmm...  We may have been doing so inadvertantly.  Look at Kosovo.  And time

will only tell what the US has recently created in Afghanistan.  Then there's
Iran, Iraq, Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Palestine, et al.

Quote:
>>There seems to be a common theme - US meddling in Muslim countries, no matter

how noble our motives, always seems to backfire eventually.

=================

Well, it looks like no matter who's in charge, there are places on the planet,
and groups of people, who will forever be somewhere on the other side of the
Stone Age. Take for example the following items from today's news.

================

Afghan Air Transport Minister Beaten to Death by Pilgrims

By LAURA KING
The Associated Press

KABUL, Afghanistan (Feb. 15) - Muslim pilgrims enraged by flight delays beat
Afghanistan's aviation minister to death, and a goodwill soccer match with
peacekeepers descended into *** amid fears of growing disorder in the
country.

The killing of Aviation Minister Abdul Rahman on Thursday by a mob of pilgrims
trying to board flights to Mecca also raised questions about the role of
international peacekeepers, who were present on the airport grounds at the time
of the attack.

One other man aboard the plane, a member of the security detail for the
officials on board, was injured when he was thrown from the aircraft, the
Interior Ministry said.

On Friday, a melee broke out at Kabul's main soccer stadium at the start of
what had been billed as a goodwill game between peacekeepers and an Afghan
team. An overflow crowd began fighting their way through the gates, and Afghan
guards beat back the crowd with tree branches, strips of *** and rifle
butts. Peacekeepers fired warning shots in the air.

German medics in the peacekeeping force said 50 Afghans had been treated for
injuries, mostly to the head. Five peacekeepers were also treated for injuries
received when members of the crowd hurled fist-size rocks at them.

An Austrian peacekeeper ran out of the crowd with *** on his face. Other
Austrian peacekeepers used fire extinguishers and guard dogs to try to keep
back the crowds.

Play began anyway despite the clash, and peacekeepers won the game 3-1.

Afghanistan's Cabinet met in emergency session for several hours late Thursday
following Rahman's killing. The Kabul airport was sealed off Friday morning and
white-helmeted Interior Ministry police were stationed every few yards on the
roads leading to the main entrance.

''We lost a good man, an educated man,'' said a top aide to Rahman, Mohammed
Yakoub Nuristani. ''He wanted to help rebuild Afghanistan.''

''The interim administration is shocked, obviously, and very saddened by this
incident,'' said Foreign Ministry spokesman Omar Samad. ''We're looking into
the criminal actions that have taken place here.''

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, who arrived Friday for talks with the
interim government, immediately conveyed his condolences to Foreign Minister
Abdullah.

The fatal confrontation was sparked after Rahman went to the Kabul airport
Thursday afternoon for a flight to New Delhi, according to accounts from
government and Afghan airline officials. Hundreds of pilgrims, who'd been
stranded at the airport since early morning awaiting Saudi visas and transport
to Mecca, blocked Rahman's plane, airline and government officials said.

The mob stormed the plane when Rahman emerged to try to talk to the crowd, said
Abdul Wahab Nuristani, the deputy chief of a military division in eastern
Afghanistan. Rahman was seized, beaten and his body tossed to the tarmac below,
he said, citing witness accounts.

''This is so terrible, so illegal,'' he said.

Dozens of friends, family and government officials gathered at Rahman's Kabul
home as word spread of his death. The mourners listened quietly as a mullah
read verses from the Quran.

Rahman, 49, was trained as a medical doctor. He fled Afghanistan when the
Taliban took over and had been living in exile in New Delhi. In interviews
since taking over as aviation and tourism minister in the interim government,
he had spoken enthusiastically of his wish to make Afghanistan a tourist
destination.

Two men were detained for questioning in the minister's death, said Faraidoon,
an Interior Ministry spokesman who uses only one name.

Despite the killing, two pilgrimage flights left the airport at 2 a.m. and
another was to depart later Friday, airport officials said, speaking on
condition of anonymity.

Several pilgrims were also hurt during a clash with Rahman's bodyguards at the
airport Thursday. Also beaten in the fray were about 10 members of the staff of
Afghanistan's Ariana Airlines, including its president, said an Ariana employee
who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The employee, who was in the airport as tensions built throughout the day, said
would-be pilgrims grew angrier and angrier as delays dragged on while they
waited in the freezing terminal.

A contingent of British and French peacekeepers, stationed less than a
half-mile away in the military part of the airport, were apparently unaware
that the situation had flared out of control. Earlier, they had sent food and
blankets for the growing crowd.

The security force ''knew there was an ongoing incident, but it happened very
quickly,'' said British Capt. Graham Dunlop, a spokesman for the peacekeepers.
He said the civilian area of the airport was under the control of Afghan
authorities.

''We were not involved,'' he said. ''It's not our jurisdiction.''

Dunlop said he did not know how many peacekeepers were on the airport grounds
at the time of the mob attack.

Mohammed Anif, a Kabul man who was waiting to see off his father on the
pilgrimage, saw the mob rushed the plane after a rumor ran through the crowd
that it was about to take off.

''They went running up the steps and inside the plane, and we saw struggles and
a body thrown out of the plane,'' he said. He said he could not tell from a
distance if it was Rahman's.

Some accounts, though, said that Rahman left the plane of his own accord to try
to talk to the crowd.

Before the plane was stormed, Anif said he heard people in the crowd talking
angrily about the minister using the plane for an official trip while they
waited for their own plane to Mecca for the hajj, or pilgrimage.

''They were saying that the hajj was the most important thing, and how could he
do this,'' Anif said. ''Some were saying they wanted to lie down in front of
the plane to keep it from taking off, and others said, 'No, let's stop it
another way.'''

The numbers of Afghan pilgrims wanting to embark on the pilgrimage had been
building up for the past several days, with backlog running into the thousands
by Thursday.

Some would-be travelers had trouble obtaining the necessary Saudi visas, but
the main bottleneck appeared to be lack of flights and delays in issuing
tickets and other paperwork. Many pilgrims were illiterate and needed help
getting their documents in order.

==============

Pilgrims, huh? Damn troublemakers. First Plymouth Rock and the Salem Witch
Trials, now this.

Peacekeepers, huh? There is no peace to be kept in that animal pen. I say trash
the place, destroy what we need to destroy, quarantine it, and leave. Same
policy for the rest of these cesspools.

Also, what does this say about the effectiveness of all the security measures
inside the U.S. if these gangs of incompetent third worlders can't control
their own aircraft (and the people in them) outside the U.S.? Fortunately their
things don't have enough range to get over here nonstop but it's not too hard
to imagine a scenario where a bunch of "pilgrims" takes over a plane and does a
9/11 with it.

Speaking of peacekeepers, the news stories that came out BEFORE that celebrated
soccer match are hilarious in retrospect. "Soccer? Effendi, I am theenking you
say "sock her!"

===============

I loved the soccer match report. Peacekeepers win, 3-1. Probably by shooting
anybody within range of their goal. Let's see if those kinder, gentler
Urropeens are quite so eager to have a "goodwill" match in the future. These
guys are nearly as incompetent as the people in the pesthole whose peace
they're "keeping." (See also Balkans).

===============

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) - Where gallows once stood, there now are goalposts.
Where the Taliban once conducted public executions and amputations, a stadium
is prepared for a sporting event.

It is a sign of normalcy returning to Afghanistan, which will stage its first
international soccer game in seven years on Friday.

``The fact that there is now a football game in a place where there were once
executions is proof that the Taliban reign of terror is finally over,'' said
Lt. Col. Dietmar Jeserich of the German peacekeeping force. ``It's a good idea
to have this game now and show people that these times are over.''

Afghanistan was suspended from the International Olympic Committee in 1999...

============

A wise move I would say, in the light of recent events.

===========

The game was organized by the British Ministry of Defense with the backing of
the English Football Association and the Premier League.

===========

Well, that helps explain it. Those people couldn't organize their way into a
***house, on a slow night, with money falling out of their wallets.

===========

Most of the players on the international side are British, but Italian, Danish,
French, German, Dutch, Norwegian and Spanish peacekeepers will also
participate.

===========

And everybody's in charge. Beautiful. Just beautiful.

==========

``They do not speak English, but football is a common language and we got along
well,'' McMenemy said after a training session with the Afghans.

===========

Yeah, I gotcher common language right heah, ragheads...

Pete

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by Gary » Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:52:19


Quote:

> ``It's a good idea
> to have this game now and show people that these times are over.''

They heard him say "these times are over", and just wanted to prove him wrong...

Gary

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by Fitch R. William » Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:09:04


Quote:

>Well, it looks like no matter who's in charge, there are places on the planet,
>and groups of people, who will forever be somewhere on the other side of the
>Stone Age. Take for example the following items from today's news.

>================

>Afghan Air Transport Minister Beaten to Death by Pilgrims

That says very concisely what the book "The Great Game" takes a few
hundred pages to prove conclusively.  There are pictures in that book of
Afghan tribes men from 100 years ago that aside from the replacement of
muzzle loaders with Russian rockets, look identical.

The Pakistani president appears to have grasped the issue, and to be
taking the correct steps.  If he succeeds, he will be the first in that
region.  The interim Afghan President understands this also - and has to
be the most optimistic person on the face of the earth, or the most
courageous - he has a heck of a challenge on his hands.  It took
something like 200 years for the US to get its act together and have the
constitution.  Those folks are being judged on doing it or not in days
by the utterly clueless press that is looking at the value of
advertising time.  

I've read Bernard Goldman's book also.  Most interesting.  Suspicions
confirmed.

Fitch
In So. Cal.

The FAQ for RCM is:        http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal
Metal Web News at http://www.metalwebnews.com      
The "Drop Box" is at    http://www.metalworking.com/

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by steame » Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:06:39


        --What it means is they, like many others, have no right to the
m***"high ground". Beating someone to death on the pilgrim trail pretty
much sums up the region IMO. I heard somewhere that "Islam" literally
translated means "surrender"; if so le'ts make slaves of them and get our
public works programs finished for once. I kinda like the idea of driving
along 101 and seeing turban-festooned chain gangs going at the potholes... ;-)

--
        "Steamboat Ed" Haas         :  Still fighting entropy,
        Building Battlebots galore! :  one mess at a time...
                        http://www.FoundCollection.com/
                   ---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by Loren Co » Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:20:54




Quote:

> >Well, it looks like no matter who's in charge, there are places on the
planet,
> >and groups of people, who will forever be somewhere on the other side of
the
> >Stone Age. Take for example the following items from today's news.

> >================

> >Afghan Air Transport Minister Beaten to Death by Pilgrims

> That says very concisely what the book "The Great Game" takes a few
> hundred pages to prove conclusively.  There are pictures in that book of

i laughed out loud when i heard this story.  not to disparage anyone or to
make light of it, but it is the most ironic thing i have ever heard.  YMMV

  --Loren

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by John Flanag » Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:15:19


On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:09:04 -0800, Fitch R. Williams

Quote:


>>Well, it looks like no matter who's in charge, there are places on the planet,
>>and groups of people, who will forever be somewhere on the other side of the
>>Stone Age. Take for example the following items from today's news.

>>================

>>Afghan Air Transport Minister Beaten to Death by Pilgrims

>That says very concisely what the book "The Great Game" takes a few
>hundred pages to prove conclusively.  There are pictures in that book of
>Afghan tribes men from 100 years ago that aside from the replacement of
>muzzle loaders with Russian rockets, look identical.

>The Pakistani president appears to have grasped the issue, and to be
>taking the correct steps.  If he succeeds, he will be the first in that
>region.  The interim Afghan President understands this also - and has to
>be the most optimistic person on the face of the earth, or the most
>courageous - he has a heck of a challenge on his hands.  It took
>something like 200 years for the US to get its act together and have the
>constitution.  Those folks are being judged on doing it or not in days
>by the utterly clueless press that is looking at the value of
>advertising time.  

>I've read Bernard Goldman's book also.  Most interesting.  Suspicions
>confirmed.

How was the book Fitch?  I maybe interested in reading it.  I've heard
that it was biased though :^).  But really did he seem fair or out for
***?

John

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by John Flanag » Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:40:45


Quote:

>    --What it means is they, like many others, have no right to the
>m***"high ground". Beating someone to death on the pilgrim trail pretty
>much sums up the region IMO. I heard somewhere that "Islam" literally
>translated means "surrender"; if so le'ts make slaves of them and get our
>public works programs finished for once. I kinda like the idea of driving
>along 101 and seeing turban-festooned chain gangs going at the potholes... ;-)

It means submit, ie submit to Allah.  I'm not too impressed with the
effect the religion has on people in general.  There are many fine
muslims out there but I think that's in spite of the religion.  I mean
really, they were on a holy pilgramage to Mecca and they kill a guy
because they blame him for delays?

I was given a Koran by a wahhabbist, not a radical though.  I'd really
would like to study it but it's tough reading, worse than the OT :^).

John

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by Loren Co » Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:09:30



Quote:

> > --What it means is they, like many others, have no right to the
> >m***"high ground". Beating someone to death on the pilgrim trail pretty
> >much sums up the region IMO. I heard somewhere that "Islam" literally
> >translated means "surrender"; if so le'ts make slaves of them and get our
> >public works programs finished for once. I kinda like the idea of driving
> >along 101 and seeing turban-festooned chain gangs going at the
potholes... ;-)

> It means submit, ie submit to Allah.  I'm not too impressed with the
> effect the religion has on people in general.  There are many fine
> muslims out there but I think that's in spite of the religion.  I mean
> really, they were on a holy pilgramage to Mecca and they kill a guy
> because they blame him for delays?

not just delays, but for trying to commondere the very plane they
were holding tickets for.

when you think about it, if everyone wore guns, people would be
a lot more curtious  (paraphrasing a gun-nut friend).

   --Loren

Quote:

> I was given a Koran by a wahhabbist, not a radical though.  I'd really
> would like to study it but it's tough reading, worse than the OT :^).

> John

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by Dave Mun » Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:28:24


        Greetings and Salutations..



Quote:




>> > --What it means is they, like many others, have no right to the
>> >m***"high ground". Beating someone to death on the pilgrim trail pretty
>> >much sums up the region IMO. I heard somewhere that "Islam" literally
>> >translated means "surrender"; if so le'ts make slaves of them and get our
>> >public works programs finished for once. I kinda like the idea of driving
>> >along 101 and seeing turban-festooned chain gangs going at the
>potholes... ;-)

>> It means submit, ie submit to Allah.  I'm not too impressed with the
>> effect the religion has on people in general.  There are many fine
>> muslims out there but I think that's in spite of the religion.  I mean
>> really, they were on a holy pilgramage to Mecca and they kill a guy
>> because they blame him for delays?

>not just delays, but for trying to commondere the very plane they
>were holding tickets for.

        There are some interesting facets to this event.  I heard from
a number of sources, including the BBC, that apparently this might
have been a politically motivated assassination, rather than an
example of simple mob ***.

Quote:
>when you think about it, if everyone wore guns, people would be
>a lot more curtious  (paraphrasing a gun-nut friend).

        "An armed society is a polite society" - Misc folks, including
Marion Zimmer Bradley (in her Darkover books - which are a great read
and an interesting idea of how an armed society might work)

Quote:
>   --Loren

>> I was given a Koran by a wahhabbist, not a radical though.  I'd really
>> would like to study it but it's tough reading, worse than the OT :^).

>> John

        It appears to be true that Arabic is a very flowery language,
so, not only is it a challenge to decipher in the original, it can be
a REAL bear to translate.

        Regards
        Dave Mundt

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by Loren Co » Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:18:58



Quote:

> >> I was given a Koran by a wahhabbist, not a radical though.  I'd really
> >> would like to study it but it's tough reading, worse than the OT :^).

> >> John

> It appears to be true that Arabic is a very flowery language,
> so, not only is it a challenge to decipher in the original, it can be
> a REAL bear to translate. >  > Regards  > Dave Mundt

as a young man, i read a translation of a collection of Arabic
stories written before Christ.  one stood out, titled "The
Silverplated Turd".

it was about someone who found out about a local offical,
whom he previously believed was appointed because of
special skills.   what was his "enlightenment"?  that this
important office holder was given the post because he
was someone's relative.

somethings never change, regardless of culture or time.

   --Loren

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by John Flanag » Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:26:40




Quote:
>not just delays, but for trying to commondere the very plane they
>were holding tickets for.

Oh, well that makes more sense then :^).

Still as the other poster mentioned even if it was a politally
motivated assassination, why did the crowd react the way they did even
if someone was stirring them up?  I can't imagine a politically
motivated assassination taking that form in the US or Europe.

John

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by Fitch R. William » Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:38:30


Quote:

>How was the book Fitch?  I maybe interested in reading it.  I've heard
>that it was biased though :^).  But really did he seem fair or out for
>***?

I agree with him that the media is biased, a lot, and most of those in a
position to stop it don't even know it because they have such a limited
view of the world.  He has some good points.  I think his conclusions
are fair.  Reading the book was a struggle but I got through it.  He
whines a bit.

Fitch
In So. Cal.

The FAQ for RCM is:        http://www.FoundCollection.com/~metal
Metal Web News at http://www.FoundCollection.com/      
The "Drop Box" is at    http://www.FoundCollection.com/

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by John Flanag » Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:36:31


On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:38:30 -0800, Fitch R. Williams

Quote:


>>How was the book Fitch?  I maybe interested in reading it.  I've heard
>>that it was biased though :^).  But really did he seem fair or out for
>>***?

>I agree with him that the media is biased, a lot, and most of those in a
>position to stop it don't even know it because they have such a limited
>view of the world.  He has some good points.  I think his conclusions
>are fair.  Reading the book was a struggle but I got through it.  He
>whines a bit.

Thanks Fitch, I'll check it out.

John

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by Gary Coffma » Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:47:48


Quote:

>Still as the other poster mentioned even if it was a politally
>motivated assassination, why did the crowd react the way they did even
>if someone was stirring them up?  I can't imagine a politically
>motivated assassination taking that form in the US or Europe.

It was a cleverer bit of misdirection than one would expect.
Generally in the US or Europe assassinations are rarely
more sophisticated than "bang you're dead".

*** up a mob isn't that uncommon, even  in the US,
though. Many of the so-called riots we've suffered were
the result of calculated efforts to inflame a crowd. *** mobs
are fairly uncommon here today, but it wasn't that long ago
that one could be raised on pretty short notice. Race or
religion were usually the tinder that only needed a spark
to ignite.

Gary

 
 
 

OT Afghans are just folks; was Re: OT-Kill Americans and you are dead meat!

Post by John Flanag » Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:59:35




Quote:

>>Still as the other poster mentioned even if it was a politally
>>motivated assassination, why did the crowd react the way they did even
>>if someone was stirring them up?  I can't imagine a politically
>>motivated assassination taking that form in the US or Europe.

>It was a cleverer bit of misdirection than one would expect.
>Generally in the US or Europe assassinations are rarely
>more sophisticated than "bang you're dead".

>*** up a mob isn't that uncommon, even  in the US,
>though. Many of the so-called riots we've suffered were
>the result of calculated efforts to inflame a crowd. *** mobs
>are fairly uncommon here today, but it wasn't that long ago
>that one could be raised on pretty short notice. Race or
>religion were usually the tinder that only needed a spark
>to ignite.

That's kind of along the lines of what I said to my Iranian
ex-roommate.  It was rather obvious one day that Islamic countries
were somewhat behind the west in certain civil areas (free speech,
etc).  I mentioned to him that Islam was 600 years younger than
Christianity and if he looked at Europe 600  years ago it would seem
even worse than Islam today.  Religions like children take time to
mature into ***hood.  I could tell he was thinking of what I said.

I haven't studied Islam enough to know if it has the potential to
mature as Christianity has.

John