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Post by Hoyt McKage » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 13:45:48



The guys on this NG know everything ... so I have several questions:

1) Any hard refs as to 4S piston rings rotating in service?

2) Any refs to motor output going down if crank case pressure is raised,
IE breather plugged?

3) Where can I get about a kilogram each of calcium chloride and ammonium
chloride? No, it's not for bombs!

Regards,

Hoyt McKagen

Belfab CNC - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html
Best MC Repair -  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html
Camping/Caving - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
 My dog drove off in my pickup truck, but left my wife behind!!

 
 
 

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Post by Karl Townsen » Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:56:03


Quote:
> 3) Where can I get about a kilogram each of calcium chloride and ammonium

Calcium cloride can be found as "Ice Melter" about 98% pure. At least in the
snow belt, any hardware store has it in the fall and winter. Its also used
as tractor tire fluid so any tractor tire repair shop would have it.

--
An apple a day keeps the doctor away.
Two apples a day gets the doctor's OK.
Five apples a day makes you a fruit grower, like me.

Karl Townsend in beautiful Dassel,MN

 
 
 

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Post by axolot » Tue, 03 Sep 2002 00:02:36


Quote:

> 3) Where can I get about a kilogram each of calcium chloride

Calcium cloride is sold by the sack as ice melter.

Kevin Gallimore

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Post by JR Nort » Tue, 03 Sep 2002 01:22:23


1. Piston rings don't rotate in service. They may shift
slightly on initial fire up after a rebuild, but the gaps
are indexed to provide the widest juxtaposition on
installation. They only seem to move into perfect alignment
on Dodge Caravans. I suppose if the bores had a nice, deep
***thread hone job(see above), they may, but otherwise,
not.
2. There isn't enough crankcase pressure to matter in any
common application. If there is, something more immediately
important is going on. Anyway, high crankcase pressure
usually finds a way to vent, like blowing out a seal or
forcing oil through them. PCV is usually calibrated into the
base air rate, so a plugged system would result in higher
counts on the IAC.
JR
Dweller in the cellar  

Quote:

> The guys on this NG know everything ... so I have several questions:

> 1) Any hard refs as to 4S piston rings rotating in service?

> 2) Any refs to motor output going down if crank case pressure is raised,
> IE breather plugged?

> 3) Where can I get about a kilogram each of calcium chloride and ammonium
> chloride? No, it's not for bombs!

> Regards,

> Hoyt McKagen

> Belfab CNC - http://www.FoundCollection.com/
> Best MC Repair -  http://www.FoundCollection.com/
> Camping/Caving - http://www.FoundCollection.com/
>  My dog drove off in my pickup truck, but left my wife behind!!

--
--------------------------------------------------------------
       Home Page: http://www.FoundCollection.com/~jasonrnorth
      If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
    Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
 The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
    No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses    
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
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"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."
 
 
 

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Post by jim roze » Tue, 03 Sep 2002 01:27:12



Quote:

>1. Piston rings don't rotate in service.

I do have evidence to the contrary.  Do the
following test:  assmble a top end with the
rings indexed to meet the specs you mention,
ie to minimize blow-by by anti-aligning the
end gaps.

Run the motor for a few hours, and disassemble.

I maintain the rings will be randomly oriented.
Anyway that's what happened when I did it.

Jim

===================================
      please reply to:
JRR(zero) at watson dot ibm dot com
===================================

 
 
 

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Post by PLAlbrec » Tue, 03 Sep 2002 02:20:21


Jason North alleged

Quote:
>>1. Piston rings don't rotate in service.

Not true. Not only can they rotate, they are expected to rotate.

The exception is two strokes where they can't be allowed to rotate, and
specific things are done to prevent that.

Hoyt asked

Quote:
> 1) Any hard refs as to 4S piston rings rotating in service?

http://www.FoundCollection.com/
(from Teledyne Continental engines: "Piston ring rotation within the ring land
is a normal design characteristic.")

SAE paper:
Schneider, E.W., Blossfeld, D., Lechman, D., Hill, R., Reising, R. and Brevick,
J., "Effect of Cylinder Bore Out-of-Roundness on Piston Ring Rotation and
Engine Oil Consumption", SAE paper 930796, 1993

More SAE pepers:
E. W. Schneider and D. H. Blossfeld, "Method for measurement of piston ring
rotation in an operating engine," SAE 900224

SAE 982442, "Dynamic characteristics of oil consumption - Relationship between
the instantaneous oil consumption and teh location of piston ring gap." By
Byung-Soon Min, Joong-Soo Kim, Dae-Yoon Oh and Jae-Kwon Choi
Hyundai Motor Co.
Joon-Ha Jin
Korea Atomic Energy Research Institute

Abstract:
"From the result of ring rotational movement, typical patterns of ringrotation
were obtained as follows;
1. Rotational movements are usually initiated by changing the operating
conditions.
2. Pistonrings tend to rotate easily under low load condition.
3. The rotation speed of ring usually ranged in 0.2 - 0.4 rev/min for top ring
and 0.5 - 0.6 rev/min for 2nd ring. The cyclic variation of oil consumption was
observed and its periodicity correlates well with that of ringrotation. The
peak of oil consumption occurred when the top and 2ndring gaps were located
with a certain distance. Therefore, it was shown that the dynamic change of oil
consumption is induced by the rotational movement of pistonrings and the
*** factor is the relative position of each ring not the absolute
position. In other words, oil consumption increases if the top and 2ndring gap
come close to each other, and decreases if the distance between them becomes
further."

http://www.FoundCollection.com/

Pete

 
 
 

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Post by Ted Edward » Tue, 03 Sep 2002 04:10:54


Quote:

> 3) Where can I get about a kilogram each of calcium chloride and ammonium
> chloride? No, it's not for bombs!

Amonium chloride (aka sal-amoniac) used to be sold in blocks for
cleaning/fluxing the big copper soldering irons.  Don't know if it still
is.

Ted

 
 
 

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Post by Mike Graha » Tue, 03 Sep 2002 04:14:06


Quote:

> Anyway that's what happened when I did it.

  I have never disassembled a head that soon after assembling it, but I have
*read* that that is the case - the initial orientation is not kept for long.
  Maybe a guy who builds dragster engines can put his two cents in... those
things are rebuilt after a few minutes of service.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mike Graham                  | Fighting the good fight against porosity,

<http://www.metalmangler.com>| try to correct the spelling of 'weldor'.

 
 
 

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Post by Robert Swinne » Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:39:55


Jim sez:"...assmble a top end with the

Quote:
> rings indexed to meet the specs you mention,
> ie to minimize blow-by by anti-aligning the
> end gaps."  and further, "I maintain the rings will be randomly oriented.
> Anyway that's what happened when I did it."

What is the difference between "anti-aligning" and "randomly oriented"?
Does anti-aligning mean 180 degree separation?

Bob Swinney


Quote:

> >1. Piston rings don't rotate in service.

> I do have evidence to the contrary.  Do the
> following test:  >
> Run the motor for a few hours, and disassemble.

> Jim

> ===================================
>       please reply to:
> JRR(zero) at watson dot ibm dot com
> ===================================

 
 
 

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Post by Joyce Moor » Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:41:00


Another source for calcium chloride would be your local readymix concrete
plant, it exellerates setup in cold weather.


Quote:

> > 3) Where can I get about a kilogram each of calcium chloride and
ammonium
> > chloride? No, it's not for bombs!

> Amonium chloride (aka sal-amoniac) used to be sold in blocks for
> cleaning/fluxing the big copper soldering irons.  Don't know if it still
> is.

> Ted