OT - Greek 737 plane crash

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by carl mcive » Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:38:39




Quote:
>>SNIP<<

| I'd be interested to know whether a 7 series
| Boeing has ever lost a tail and made it home.

    Not that I've ever heard of.  Rudders and elevators I think have left
the vehicle, though, which is not completely uncommon.  High speed testing
does some weird things to control surfaces!
    Up until the 777, all high and low speed rudders were separate units,
but the 777's high speed rudder is a big tab of sorts mounted on the back of
the low speed rudder.  If I guess right, it makes the controls a lot
simpler, since you want the high speed rudder to move all the way before the
low speed does.  Pretty cool watching it swing in the factory.

 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by Dan_Thomas_nos.. » Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:03:05


Quote:
>Isn't that the system boats used for navigation?   I seem to recall seeing
>the product in boating magazines years ago.
>Harold

        See     http://www.loran.org/

        Loran WAS originally set up for marine navigation, and aviators
were able to buy aircraft receivers once more stations were set up to
make it useable in areas far from any coast. There were handheld units
sold to boaters but which were also used by pilots. The accuracy isn't
all that great, but will get you close enough to find the airport.
          The Loran system is still functioning. They had originally
decided to shut it down since GPS was so much more accurate, but it
appears that it's still alive as a backup.
          It's a low-frequency system, around 100 kHz, and such low
freqs are nap-of-the-earth waves that travel thousands of miles while
losing little strength. The receiver triangulates its position based on
signal times. No altitude info. Ships didn't need it :-)
           Omega, on the other hand, might not be in use anymore. It
ran in a similar manner, but on VLF frequencies of 9 to 14 kHz. Only
eight stations covered the entire earth.

           Dan

 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by Martin H. Eastbur » Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:48:50


Quote:



>>system. An older airplane might even be tracking Loran or Omega.

> I think LORAN is gone now, doesn't exist anymore.

> Jim

I think it could be, but shouldn't be.   Most planes, ships, and people use GPS.
There are risky times however when the Sats get blasted by a SUN plume or burst.
If many are lost - regions would be gone.  I suppose picket ships could be sent
out - but there are many places around the world.

I know some people what might know - a LORAN station was a couple of miles from
where I lived for a while - mid pacific.  United States Coast Guard manned that and
the other sites.  Wonder if they still live there.

Hum - the site that they built the birds in the sky was several miles from my
old house.

Small world in many ways.

Martin

--

NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by Martin H. Eastbur » Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:55:04



Quote:


>>             Still working, I think. The station in Central BC, Canada,
>>was still standing last summer.

>>        Dan

> Isn't that the system boats used for navigation?   I seem to recall seeing
> the product in boating magazines years ago.

> Harold

Yep.  I was at the 'mid Pacific' refueling port (among other things) - and the
LORAN station was just up island.  The fleet would come by to visit them and
visit us every six months.  During the Cold War, one day a couple of mine sweepers
came by on tour.  When they went up island (within our atoll) they detected a
Soviet sub inside the lagoon! - Naturally chase was given - and nets were dropped.

Long story - a torpedo and the nets parted.  Washington never answered the phone call.
Viet Nam was on the thoughts, not a couple of mine sweepers.

Martin

--

NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by gfulto » Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:24:45



Quote:


>>>SNIP<<
> | I'd be interested to know whether a 7 series
> | Boeing has ever lost a tail and made it home.

>    Not that I've ever heard of.

Nor me.  I'd be interested in that if it's a fact.  And I doubt it.

Garrett Fulton

 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by Harold and Susan Vordo » Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:29:34



Quote:
> >Isn't that the system boats used for navigation?   I seem to recall
seeing
> >the product in boating magazines years ago.

> >Harold

>         See     http://www.loran.org/

>         Loran WAS originally set up for marine navigation, and aviators
> were able to buy aircraft receivers once more stations were set up to
> make it useable in areas far from any coast. There were handheld units
> sold to boaters but which were also used by pilots. The accuracy isn't
> all that great, but will get you close enough to find the airport.
>           The Loran system is still functioning. They had originally
> decided to shut it down since GPS was so much more accurate, but it
> appears that it's still alive as a backup.
>           It's a low-frequency system, around 100 kHz, and such low
> freqs are nap-of-the-earth waves that travel thousands of miles while
> losing little strength. The receiver triangulates its position based on
> signal times. No altitude info. Ships didn't need it :-)
>            Omega, on the other hand, might not be in use anymore. It
> ran in a similar manner, but on VLF frequencies of 9 to 14 kHz. Only
> eight stations covered the entire earth.

>            Dan

Thanks!  From all indications, it's enjoying a new life.

Harold

 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by jim roze » Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:19:20




Quote:

>             Still working, I think. The station in Central BC, Canada,
>was still standing last summer.

Ah, I spoke too soon.  There are different versions of LORAN
and some of them have been phased out - others are being upgraded
though:

<http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/loran/modernization.htm>

I don't think aircraft use is included in the plan though.

Jim

--
==================================================
             please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by Don Stauffe » Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:34:52


Quote:





>>>>SNIP<<

>>| I'd be interested to know whether a 7 series
>>| Boeing has ever lost a tail and made it home.

>>   Not that I've ever heard of.

> Nor me.  I'd be interested in that if it's a fact.  And I doubt it.

> Garrett Fulton

What exactly do we mean by "tail"  Rudder- elevator- horizontal stab-
vertical stab? To me losing tail means all of above- the plane is
doomed.  Losing either stabilizer, pretty much the same.  Loss of rudder
can possibly be saved.  Have some doubt if elevator is lost, but maybe
not impossible if long enough runway available.  But loss of elevator
would probably mean severe pitch down, more than can be compensated by
stabilizer trim.
 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by Don Stauffe » Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:36:16



Quote:


>>>Isn't that the system boats used for navigation?   I seem to recall

> seeing

>>>the product in boating magazines years ago.

>>>Harold

>>        See     http://www.loran.org/

>>        Loran WAS originally set up for marine navigation, and aviators
>>were able to buy aircraft receivers once more stations were set up to
>>make it useable in areas far from any coast. There were handheld units
>>sold to boaters but which were also used by pilots. The accuracy isn't
>>all that great, but will get you close enough to find the airport.
>>          The Loran system is still functioning. They had originally
>>decided to shut it down since GPS was so much more accurate, but it
>>appears that it's still alive as a backup.
>>          It's a low-frequency system, around 100 kHz, and such low
>>freqs are nap-of-the-earth waves that travel thousands of miles while
>>losing little strength. The receiver triangulates its position based on
>>signal times. No altitude info. Ships didn't need it :-)
>>           Omega, on the other hand, might not be in use anymore. It
>>ran in a similar manner, but on VLF frequencies of 9 to 14 kHz. Only
>>eight stations covered the entire earth.

>>           Dan

> Thanks!  From all indications, it's enjoying a new life.

> Harold

Just read a fantastic new book, called "Tuxedo Park," by Jannett Conant,
that discusses invention and development of Loran. Really good read!
 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by RAM^ » Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:52:50



Quote:

> What exactly do we mean by "tail"  Rudder- elevator- horizontal stab-
> vertical stab? To me losing tail means all of above- the plane is doomed.
> Losing either stabilizer, pretty much the same.  Loss of rudder can
> possibly be saved.  Have some doubt if elevator is lost, but maybe not
> impossible if long enough runway available.  But loss of elevator would
> probably mean severe pitch down, more than can be compensated by
> stabilizer trim.

It's obvious that you are quite unfamiliar with the history of Boeing's
Model 299 - designated by the military as the B-17.

These birds flew back to their bases with missing vertical stabilizers,
missing horizontal stabilizers, and one made it back to its North African
base after a mid-air collision with a German fighter that put its wing
through the rear of the fuselage! [That one broke in half AFTER landing.]

Boeing build tough birds.

 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by Dan_Thomas_nos.. » Tue, 23 Aug 2005 05:20:15


      Maybe 20 years ago a 747 over Japan lost its entire vertical fin
and rudder when the aft pressure bulkhead blew out. The airplane
zigzagged for some time as the crew tried to control it using thrust
differential, but it finally crashed. There was too little directional
stability, I think, and they just couldn't make a go of it.
        The pressure bulkhead had been damaged some time earlier when
the tail struck the runway during over-rotation on takeoff. No
inspector found the damage and a lot of folks paid the price.

        Dan

 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by gfulto » Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:19:42



Quote:





> >>>>SNIP<<

> >>| I'd be interested to know whether a 7 series
> >>| Boeing has ever lost a tail and made it home.

> >>   Not that I've ever heard of.

> > Nor me.  I'd be interested in that if it's a fact.  And I doubt it.

> > Garrett Fulton

> What exactly do we mean by "tail"  Rudder- elevator- horizontal stab-
> vertical stab? To me losing tail means all of above- the plane is
> doomed.  Losing either stabilizer, pretty much the same.  Loss of rudder
> can possibly be saved.  Have some doubt if elevator is lost, but maybe
> not impossible if long enough runway available.  But loss of elevator
> would probably mean severe pitch down, more than can be compensated by
> stabilizer trim.

You can lose elevator control and fly with the stabilizer.  If an Airbus,
(A319/320/321/330 are the ones I'm sure about), loses all electrics and
computers, engines and engine driven hyd. pumps, and aux. power unit, it's
down to flying with the horiz. stabilizer and the rudder.  The rudder does
have cable control and hyd. for the stab. is provided by the RAT.  (Ram air
turbine driven hyd. pump and generator that drops out of the belly of the
fuselage.)  An Airbus maint. instructor set me up that way in the A330
simulator in Miami, and it gave me a little more respect for pilots.  I
finally got it straight and level, but he said that everybody in the back
would have puked by now.
    And to clarify the Japanese 747 that lost the vert. stab., it was caused
by a bad repair on the aft pressure bulkhead as someone here already
mentioned.  The air had to go somewhere and it blew out the structure under
the vert. stab.  That stabilizer sure as hell didn't come off because the
pilot kicked the rudder pedals too hard as in the case of the Eurotrash.
    A runaway horiz. stabilizer has caused a crash every time I can
remember.  As in the case of the MD-80 off the California coast a while
back.  They always burn off the wing tanks first, which causes the CG to
shift forward, (nose down), and the stabilizer_has_to compensate for that.

Garrett Fulton

 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by carl mcive » Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:31:46



Quote:
>>SNIP<<

| What exactly do we mean by "tail"  Rudder- elevator- horizontal stab-
| vertical stab? To me losing tail means all of above- the plane is
| doomed.  Losing either stabilizer, pretty much the same.  Loss of rudder
| can possibly be saved.  Have some doubt if elevator is lost, but maybe
| not impossible if long enough runway available.  But loss of elevator
| would probably mean severe pitch down, more than can be compensated by
| stabilizer trim.

    Airplanes can do a lot without a rudder, but a fin is a different story.
A rudder is a control surface attached to a vertical fin, aka vertical
stabilizer.  While flying, have you ever noticed that the airplane banks in
a turn?  In order to make a turn, elevators (control surfaces on the wing)
out on the ends of the wings till the plane and it rolls into the turn.  The
only time pretty much a plane uses the rudder to "trim" so the plane can
stay straight in a crosswind or to help control the plane while on its
approach for landing if there's a crosswind (when in a severe crosswind, the
airplane lands at such an extreme turn angle they call it "crabbing.")  I've
got a couple remote control planes for my sons, and they have a vertical
stabilizer, but no rudder.  Just elevators and the horizontal stabilizer to
control flight.  For simple applications it works fine, and in a pinch,
it'll work on bigger planes.
    To lose an elevator or two can be compensated for, usually, but the
elevators on the horizontal stabilizer, if so equipped, or careful use of
engine power.  Losing the horizontal stabilizer is usually pretty hard to
deal with; some of you remember a jackscrew problem on an MD-80 not so long
ago.

 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by Nick Hul » Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:01:59




Quote:
>     To lose an elevator or two can be compensated for, usually, but the
> elevators on the horizontal stabilizer, if so equipped, or careful use of
> engine power.  Losing the horizontal stabilizer is usually pretty hard to
> deal with; some of you remember a jackscrew problem on an MD-80 not so long
> ago.

In that jackscrew case, the stabilizer was too far off for level flight.  
Could the pilot have flipped the plane upside down intermittently to
compensate?  Would be rough but a nose first crash is worse.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

 
 
 

OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Post by carl mcive » Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:05:54



|       Maybe 20 years ago a 747 over Japan lost its entire vertical fin
| and rudder when the aft pressure bulkhead blew out. The airplane
| zigzagged for some time as the crew tried to control it using thrust
| differential, but it finally crashed. There was too little directional
| stability, I think, and they just couldn't make a go of it.
|         The pressure bulkhead had been damaged some time earlier when
| the tail struck the runway during over-rotation on takeoff. No
| inspector found the damage and a lot of folks paid the price.
|
|         Dan

    There are still arrest warrants in Japan out for one inspector and a
couple mechanics from that repair job.  It had been recently repaired by a
Boeing AOG (Aircraft On Ground) who had gotten complacent and started pencil
*** things and not taking it seriously.  AOG is constantly in a hurry,
doing some rather phenomenal repairs and some rather routine stuff, so shit
happened.  Nowadays when repair paperwork has been presented to the customer
for their information and records (new planes, being incredibly complex and
built by humans, inevitably have some repairs before complete) now have the
mechanics' and inspector's names either obliterated or replaced with X's, as
a result of that incident.
    The pressure dome, as it's called, is a very thin sheet metal, fragile
and highly stressed part of the airplane, and rightfully so treated very
carefully.  Boeing now treats damage to the domes with the utmost respect
and caution.  It's almost annoying, but that's the way things have become.
For what would be minor damage elsewhere (small die dent, scratch) they will
yank the entire back end off the plane, regardless of the completeness of
the plane, and replace it.  Kinda weird seeing a fully assembled plane out
in the bay with aft galleys pulled forward, wires*** everywhere, and
the tail, complete with APU and stabs, sitting on huge styrofoam blocks on
the floor.
    What really happened in Japan was that the dome blew out and took out
four hydraulic pressure lines going to the tail.  That was all four
hydraulic systems, and since there was no way to stop the flow of fluid from
the entire system, all four "bled out."  There are now shut off valves
immediately behind the dome on all Boeing products just for that
possibility.  If the hydraulics hadn't bled out, thrust control would have
been enough to get them on the ground in reasonable shape with the wing
surfaces functioning, but in Japan there's a few mountains here and there,
so without _any_ hydraulic systems to control all the flight control
systems, engines were pretty much all there was for controls, although I
think they did try using the main gear to slow the plane down, but obviously
they couldn't retract them, and when approaching a mountain, speed is
necessary to make some altitude.  Here's a decent story about it:
http://www.FoundCollection.com/

    I also came across this today:
http://www.FoundCollection.com/
    This a bit of Boeing fluff about AOG and they stuff they've done.
http://www.FoundCollection.com/
New Delhi story blows my mind, and I've seen the videotapes about it.  You
thought you've had a mother of a repair job?  That one took the cake!  That
was back in the late 80's when the demand for 747's was so high that a used
747 cost more than a new one and the airline (I think Air France) was
willing to pay more than new cost to get that plane back in the air.  I was
interested in getting on with AOG, but most of those guys are working
overtime when "home" just to keep all the ex-wives paid off, and I'd just as
soon not do that!