scribing panel lines and replacing rivets

scribing panel lines and replacing rivets

Post by Rick DeNata » Wed, 25 Jan 1995 22:19:00




Quote:

> In a moment of insanity during the KayBee inventory clearance, I slipped and
> bought my first aircraft kit in 25 years - and what a *gem* I picked, the
> Monogram P-38 w/rivets galore and raised panel lines...

> I understand that the ideal outcome is to remove the rivets, and replace the
> raised panel lines with scribed panel lines - BUT HOW???....  

> - what is the recommended approach for eliminating the offending detail?

Recommended approach #2 - Just sand it off.
Recommended approach #1 - Replace the kit with either a Hasegawa or
Minicraft P-38. But I guess you don't want to hear that ;-)

Quote:
> - how would the "replacement" rivet detail be added?

I wouldn't worry about it. Just sand the rivet's off. They really
shouldn't show up in 1/48th scale.

Quote:

> - how would one (a) assure that the replacement scribe lines were in the
>   right place, and esp. on a curved surface (b) make sure they're straight?
>   for (b), a flexible metal ruler, maybe?????
>   any recommendations on a scribing tool *other* than the back edge of an
>   xacto blade?

I beleive that this kit is molded in 'silver plastic'. Sanding the raised
panel lines should leave dark marks behind. Of course you'd want to check
your references to make sure that THEY were correct.

A good way to guide your scribe is to use labelmaker tape (The Dyno brand
is the most popular). This is self adhesive and you can cut it to a
narrower width to make it conform to compound curves.

For a scribe I'd suggest getting a regular metal scribe at a hardware
store, which is just a steel point in a handle. General makes one. Get a
fish hook sharpener to sharpen it. This is a little triangular sharpening
stone with groves in two of the three sides.

Another problem with this kit, if you care, is the complete lack of gear
well detail. Koster sells insides for the gear bays in vacuform.

Really, I don't think that it's worth going to all this trouble on this
kit, unless you really want to. If you're building for your own enjoyment
and that's what you enjoy go for it. If you're building for a contest,
you'll save yourself a lot of grief by starting with one of the newer P-38
kits.

--
Rick DeNatale
Still trying to come up with a really cool Signature

 
 
 

scribing panel lines and replacing rivets

Post by Peter Shyve » Wed, 25 Jan 1995 05:25:49


I suppose this could be a FAQ...

In a moment of insanity during the KayBee inventory clearance, I slipped and
bought my first aircraft kit in 25 years - and what a *gem* I picked, the
Monogram P-38 w/rivets galore and raised panel lines...

I understand that the ideal outcome is to remove the rivets, and replace the
raised panel lines with scribed panel lines - BUT HOW???....  

- what is the recommended approach for eliminating the offending detail?

- how would the "replacement" rivet detail be added?

- how would one (a) assure that the replacement scribe lines were in the
  right place, and esp. on a curved surface (b) make sure they're straight?
  for (b), a flexible metal ruler, maybe?????
  any recommendations on a scribing tool *other* than the back edge of an
  xacto blade?

pete
--

EDS
3860 North First Street                    Phone: (408) 428-8831
San Jose, CA 95134                         FAX:   (408) 428-8513

 
 
 

scribing panel lines and replacing rivets

Post by Andrew Madis » Thu, 26 Jan 1995 00:05:30




:
: > In a moment of insanity during the KayBee inventory clearance, I slipped and
: > bought my first aircraft kit in 25 years - and what a *gem* I picked, the
: > Monogram P-38 w/rivets galore and raised panel lines...
: >
: > I understand that the ideal outcome is to remove the rivets, and replace the
: > raised panel lines with scribed panel lines - BUT HOW???....  
: >
: > - what is the recommended approach for eliminating the offending detail?
:
: Recommended approach #2 - Just sand it off.
: Recommended approach #1 - Replace the kit with either a Hasegawa or
: Minicraft P-38. But I guess you don't want to hear that ;-)
:
: > - how would one (a) assure that the replacement scribe lines were in the
: >   right place, and esp. on a curved surface (b) make sure they're straight?
: >   for (b), a flexible metal ruler, maybe?????
: >   any recommendations on a scribing tool *other* than the back edge of an
: >   xacto blade?
:
: I beleive that this kit is molded in 'silver plastic'. Sanding the raised
: panel lines should leave dark marks behind. Of course you'd want to check
: your references to make sure that THEY were correct.

The `94 February issue of FineScale Modeler has an excellent article on
replicating sheet metal "dimple" from both the framing of the aircraft and
the rivets.  Something the article hints at but fails to explicitly mention
is that good references of the subject of interest are vital so one doesn't
go overboard on panel detail.

: A good way to guide your scribe is to use labelmaker tape (The Dyno brand
: is the most popular). This is self adhesive and you can cut it to a
: narrower width to make it conform to compound curves.
:
: For a scribe I'd suggest getting a regular metal scribe at a hardware
: store, which is just a steel point in a handle. General makes one. Get a
: fish hook sharpener to sharpen it. This is a little triangular sharpening
: stone with groves in two of the three sides.

Being a scratch builder, I'm a fanatical tool collector.  A tungston scribe
does work.  So does a sharp sewing needle in a pin-vise.  Even the point
from a pair of dividers (for large circles its the only solution).  The
wrong side of a no. 11 blade also works, especially for extra wide lines.
But I bought one of those panel scribers from Squadron (doesn't have to be
from Squadron).  This tool really is the way to go for anyone scribing alot
of panels.  You pull the tool instead of pushing.  It really does pull a
hair of plastic out instead of furrowing the plastic aside.  Pulling is the
key to this tool, because you will find spots where the plastic is harder
than others, and it necessary to rework some segments to get a consistent
depth and width of the panel line.  If you push through one of these hard
spots, a scribe will prefer to go everywhere but where the panel line is,
and you'll have at least one accident with a *** scratch, eliciting both
expletives and repair work.

For guiding a scribe, tape is good for deeply rounded surfaces, and some
complex curves.  But a thin sheet of brass is also a good straight edge than
will happily accept a shallow 1-axis curve.  When you have an entire wing to
scribe and adept fingers, this is good time saver.  There also templates with
various shapes, ovals, circles, and boxes.  You can also cut the same sheet
of brass, (get the thinest sheet for this) with a brand new no. 11 blade to
make custom template shapes.

--
A.J. Madison                          PHONE: (508) 490-6972
Stratus Computer Inc.              


 
 
 

scribing panel lines and replacing rivets

Post by Rich Gortatows » Thu, 26 Jan 1995 11:01:45


: I suppose this could be a FAQ...

: In a moment of insanity during the KayBee inventory clearance, I slipped and
: bought my first aircraft kit in 25 years - and what a *gem* I picked, the
: Monogram P-38 w/rivets galore and raised panel lines...

: I understand that the ideal outcome is to remove the rivets, and replace the
: raised panel lines with scribed panel lines - BUT HOW???....  

: - what is the recommended approach for eliminating the offending detail?

: - how would the "replacement" rivet detail be added?

: - how would one (a) assure that the replacement scribe lines were in the
:   right place, and esp. on a curved surface (b) make sure they're straight?
:   for (b), a flexible metal ruler, maybe?????
:   any recommendations on a scribing tool *other* than the back edge of an
:   xacto blade?

: pete
: --

: EDS
: 3860 North First Street                    Phone: (408) 428-8831
: San Jose, CA 95134                         FAX:   (408) 428-8513

I've done a little rivot bolt head replacing building car models.
What I do is using my handy dandy drill, make small holes basically
the size of the rivots. (or bolt heads). Then, I use*** wire, beading wire
conductor from electriacal wire knip the end or sAw it clean! (important)
so tis' not crushed at the knip point. Feed it it and lil' super glue.
Looks REAL attractive, better than the original if you ask me.
For flat bolt tops (hex heads etc) I use the same method previously posted
in "proper tools" as I use to REPLACE photo etched parts, whih since we're
all computer geeks is simple to do.
99% of the time it is of equal or better quality than photoetched parts
and has basically NO cost at all.

--
--

Please use this address ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
These comments are mine alone and not those of Eastman Kodak. Meow..

 
 
 

scribing panel lines and replacing rivets

Post by DOWNEN TROY DOUGL » Fri, 27 Jan 1995 00:41:28


: - how would one (a) assure that the replacement scribe lines were in the
:   right place, and esp. on a curved surface (b) make sure they're straight?
:   for (b), a flexible metal ruler, maybe?????
:   any recommendations on a scribing tool *other* than the back edge of an
:   xacto blade?

Before sanding off the offending panel lines, use a straight pin to dig
shallow holes at reference points along the line (e.g. the end points,
points of intersection with other lines, etc.).  Don't make these pin
holes too deep--just deep enough to withstand the sanding job.  Later,
just play "connect the dots" !!  You may not want to rescribe all your
panel lines at once, but only do sections at a time so that you don't get
confused with all the dots.

Use label tape (you know, the stuff that goes in label makers) to wrap
around corners and fuselages.  It's good for about two different uses
(stick it down twice,then it's not gummy enough anymore).

I used to use a large sewing needle in a pin vise with some success.  It
will carve out lines in the plastic, but heaps the plastic up on either
side of the groove.  You've got to sand off these ridges now, and then
rescribe once or twice more.  Kind of a pain, and the results are iffy,
at best.  Then I bought a "panel scriber" from MicroMark Tools (they
advertise in FSM, and the Panel scriber is really a dentist's tool).  It
will REMOVE the plastic instead of pushing it around.  WOW!!  Incredible
results!!  I HIGHLY recommend investing $4 in a panel scriber.

Good luck!
--Troy

 
 
 

scribing panel lines and replacing rivets

Post by Jennings Heili » Sat, 28 Jan 1995 00:47:46


I came upon a little trick for locating sanded off panel lines that works
like a charm.  After sanding all the detail off (one side at a time - use
the other side for reference), simply spray the model with a mist of
superglue accelerator.  It etches slightly into the plastic and makes the
former panel line locations visible under good lighting.  I've been using
this technique for about six years, and it works great!

Jennings Heilig


Quote:
> : - how would one (a) assure that the replacement scribe lines were in the
> :   right place, and esp. on a curved surface (b) make sure they're straight?
> :   for (b), a flexible metal ruler, maybe?????
> :   any recommendations on a scribing tool *other* than the back edge of an
> :   xacto blade?

> Before sanding off the offending panel lines, use a straight pin to dig
> shallow holes at reference points along the line (e.g. the end points,
> points of intersection with other lines, etc.).  Don't make these pin
> holes too deep--just deep enough to withstand the sanding job.  Later,
> just play "connect the dots" !!  You may not want to rescribe all your
> panel lines at once, but only do sections at a time so that you don't get
> confused with all the dots.

> Use label tape (you know, the stuff that goes in label makers) to wrap
> around corners and fuselages.  It's good for about two different uses
> (stick it down twice,then it's not gummy enough anymore).

> I used to use a large sewing needle in a pin vise with some success.  It
> will carve out lines in the plastic, but heaps the plastic up on either
> side of the groove.  You've got to sand off these ridges now, and then
> rescribe once or twice more.  Kind of a pain, and the results are iffy,
> at best.  Then I bought a "panel scriber" from MicroMark Tools (they
> advertise in FSM, and the Panel scriber is really a dentist's tool).  It
> will REMOVE the plastic instead of pushing it around.  WOW!!  Incredible
> results!!  I HIGHLY recommend investing $4 in a panel scriber.

> Good luck!
> --Troy

 
 
 

scribing panel lines and replacing rivets

Post by Chris Maxfie » Sat, 28 Jan 1995 01:28:17


: I understand that the ideal outcome is to remove the rivets, and replace the
: raised panel lines with scribed panel lines - BUT HOW???....  

Go to the hardware store or Wal-Mart and buy some wet-dry sandpaper (I
prefer 3M).  Get a pan or dish filled with water, dip a piece of the sand
paper in it and start sanding.  Rivets shouldn't be there-I guess they
just put them there to awe and amaze little kids.  I would start sanding
with 320 or 400 and then follow up with the next grain up (i.e. if you use
320 then use 400 to finish sand).  When you get done the surface detail
will leave "shadows" of where it was so you can easily see where to
scribe it.

: - what is the recommended approach for eliminating the offending detail?

: - how would the "replacement" rivet detail be added?

: - how would one (a) assure that the replacement scribe lines were in the
:   right place, and esp. on a curved surface (b) make sure they're straight?
:   for (b), a flexible metal ruler, maybe?????
:   any recommendations on a scribing tool *other* than the back edge of an
:   xacto blade?

a) You would just have to check references to see if the lines were in the
correct position.  
b)  I use either brass sheets or I think what they call a
"Machinist's Scale"  it is a steel ruler that is marked up to 64ths of an
inch.  However, the tape idea sounds pretty good so I'm going to have to
try that one out (Thanks).  

As far as a scribing tool goes I use a dental pick.  If you can find a
place that sells surplus goods and if they have hemostats they probably
will have picks like the dentist uses on you.  I have also heard of people
using straight pins held in the chuck of a pin vise.  Another tool that
I've used myself (got this out of one of the Kalmbach books) is to take a
#11 X-Acto blade grind off the pointed tip till you have about half of the
blade left.  Next step is to grind or file a round cut out on the back of
the blade.  It's kind of hard for me to describe w/o pictures.  What you
want in the end is a hook like tip on the back of the blade.  I like my
dental probe the best though.

 
 
 

scribing panel lines and replacing rivets

Post by Edward A. Blake-Davi » Sun, 29 Jan 1995 17:02:44


: I suppose this could be a FAQ...

: In a moment of insanity during the KayBee inventory clearance, I slipped and
: bought my first aircraft kit in 25 years - and what a *gem* I picked, the
: Monogram P-38 w/rivets galore and raised panel lines...

: I understand that the ideal outcome is to remove the rivets, and replace the
: raised panel lines with scribed panel lines - BUT HOW???....  

: - what is the recommended approach for eliminating the offending detail?

: - how would the "replacement" rivet detail be added?

: - how would one (a) assure that the replacement scribe lines were in the
:   right place, and esp. on a curved surface (b) make sure they're straight?
:   for (b), a flexible metal ruler, maybe?????
:   any recommendations on a scribing tool *other* than the back edge of an
:   xacto blade?

: pete
: --

: EDS
: 3860 North First Street                    Phone: (408) 428-8831
: San Jose, CA 95134                         FAX:   (408) 428-8513
It basically means sanding off all those uglt ones. Often there still is
a marked from the rasised line (diff to explain see for yourself) to guide
the rescribe - if not a mechanical pencil and flexible ruler come in handy.
Tools - back of an xacto -ok
        Sewing needle in a pin vise - ok
        BOTH these leave a ridge o plastic around the panel line that
        must be sanded off - a pain. Go for the needle for finer lines
        ie 1/48 and 1/72
        tamiya or other scribig tool
        Actually removes plastic but if used heavy handidly and gouge
        massively oversized lines in the plane
        THE BEST (but expensive)
        Squadrons scribing tool (some sort of modified dentists tool)
        As per Tamiyas but finer - for more delecate work.
   BOTH of the above leave little or no ridge.

As for compound curves - a real ***ing *** to do - there are some
expensive curved metal templates available (TRIMASTER COMES TO MIND - prob
find one at discount if you phone around) - or that Chart/Graph tape
from stationary stores can be used to guide the scribe.
***ed up lines can be filled with gap filling super glue - ZAP A GAP and
sanded down then rescribed
RIVETS - well a needle - or even better a fine hypodermic needle (CUT?)
in a pin vise to make real - o - rivets
ALEX DAVIES

 
 
 

scribing panel lines and replacing rivets

Post by Federico Carmina » Tue, 31 Jan 1995 18:21:33


I agree that Squadron scribing tool is very good. I tried several times
to blackmail my dentist to give me tools before throwing them away, without
success.

to make rivets an hipodermic needle, cut and sharpened is very good, but
careful to scale tought. A rivet is typically 1 cm or so, and is *perfectly*
flush apart from a hole at the centre. Now in 1/48 this means 0.05 cm, that
is half of a tenth of a mm. I can hardly imagine you can come up with something
that small for - o - rivets. Probably a small 'hole' with a needle is all you
can do.

Of course here comes the problem of what is true scale and what makes a model
*look* real, which is what we want (isn't it?). In this sense I would go for
- o - rivets with a needle.

For panel lines even a very fine scribing tool makes recesses which may be
oversized. I have used pencils with good results, what do you think?

Fed

 
 
 

scribing panel lines and replacing rivets

Post by Rick DeNata » Tue, 31 Jan 1995 21:57:21



Quote:

> to make rivets an hipodermic needle, cut and sharpened is very good, but
> careful to scale tought. A rivet is typically 1 cm or so, and is *perfectly*
> flush apart from a hole at the centre. Now in 1/48 this means 0.05 cm, that
> is half of a tenth of a mm.

Actually according to my calculator 1cm in 1/48 works out to 0.0208 cm!

You bring out a good point about scale.

While the cutting scribes are quite nice (The best one I've found is sold
by Dr. Microtools), I've found that they are hard to control. That's why
I've found a regular straight machinists scribe best at least for the
initial scribing.

--
Rick DeNatale
Still trying to come up with a really cool Signature

 
 
 

scribing panel lines and replacing rivets

Post by Andrew Madis » Sun, 05 Feb 1995 00:59:01


: to make rivets an hipodermic needle, cut and sharpened is very good, but
: careful to scale tought. A rivet is typically 1 cm or so, and is *perfectly*
: flush apart from a hole at the centre. Now in 1/48 this means 0.05 cm, that
: is half of a tenth of a mm. I can hardly imagine you can come up with
: something that small for - o - rivets. Probably a small 'hole' with a
: needle is all you can do.
:
: Of course here comes the problem of what is true scale and what makes a model
: *look* real, which is what we want (isn't it?). In this sense I would go for
: - o - rivets with a needle.

If I may inject a bit of opinion here, in the case of replicating rivets,
what's being modeled isn't the rivet so much, as the subtle dimple in the
sheet metal around it.  But some thought and a supply of good photographs
should be used when applying this technique.  WWII/WWII era aircraft had
quite a pronounced pucker, and in some cases the rivet itself also cast a
discernable shadow.  Contemporary jet aircraft have flush fasteners, and
the sheet metal mostly undistorted.  Though I observed on an L1011 I rode
during the holidays, the fasteners were black and the sheet metal was
painted (in this case) grey.  So checking references, and determining what
can and can't be seen in the scale of the subject has to be kept in mind.

So on older aircraft, scribing panel lines and making rivet dimples is in
order.  On more contemporary aircraft, different shades and good weathering
is likely to be a better route for replicating panels and their
fasterners.

Admittedly, this discussion was started because of a P-38 as I recall, and
thus the concentration on rivets and panel lines.

--
A.J. Madison                          PHONE: (508) 490-6972
Stratus Computer Inc.