How Much is concidered a hoard?

How Much is concidered a hoard?

Post by Kevi » Tue, 25 May 2004 06:22:59



just a quick question, how many of any one coin do you need to have it
considered a hoard lets say silver dollars?
 
 
 

How Much is concidered a hoard?

Post by Stu MacDonal » Tue, 25 May 2004 08:39:01



Quote:
>just a quick question, how many of any one coin do you need to have it
>considered a hoard lets say silver dollars?

I would define a hoard as "investment" silver ( or other precious
metals) so would be any amount of coinage not needed at the moment. So
the answer I think would depend on the individual hoarding. A
millionaire would probably consider many thousands as a hoard while I
would consider maybe one-hundred un-needed coins. BTW I wouldn't
consider a collection a "hoard".

Stu MacDonald

"Yellow gold is plentiful compared to white-haired friends".

...Chinese Proverb

 
 
 

How Much is concidered a hoard?

Post by Scot Kamin » Tue, 25 May 2004 09:34:35



Quote:

> >just a quick question, how many of any one coin do you need to have it
> >considered a hoard lets say silver dollars?

It's not so much a numenr as a concept. A hoard is distinct from a
collection in that each peace in a collection is catalogued; in a hoard,
you just have a heap of something.

So how many are in a hoard? More than a few.

Scot Kamins
--
"Speak your truth, even as your voice quakes."

 
 
 

How Much is concidered a hoard?

Post by Porfiry Petrovit » Wed, 26 May 2004 00:49:52


Quote:

> just a quick question, how many of any one coin do you need to have it
> considered a hoard lets say silver dollars?

My dictionary says a hoard is a 'hidden accumulation'. So I guess you
don't need as many to have a hoard if you got 'em stashed someplace.
 
 
 

How Much is concidered a hoard?

Post by Coin Sav » Wed, 26 May 2004 02:34:50


Quote:
>From: Kevin
>just a quick question, how many of any one coin do you need to have it

considered a hoard?>

I had a friend who once (in 1973) wrote the US Government a letter asking: "How
much is in a sh*tload?"

He actually got a reply, from the US Department of Weights & Measures.  It
said:

"The unit of measure you requested information on is not officially recognized
by the US Government" or something to that effect.

8-|
 - Coin Saver

 
 
 

How Much is concidered a hoard?

Post by Bruce Remic » Wed, 26 May 2004 09:59:45



Quote:

> > >just a quick question, how many of any one coin do you need to have it
> > >considered a hoard lets say silver dollars?

> It's not so much a numenr as a concept. A hoard is distinct from a
> collection in that each peace in a collection is catalogued; in a hoard,
> you just have a heap of something.

I have several heaps of something in my backyard.  I hope I'm not hoarding.

Quote:

> So how many are in a hoard? More than a few.

There actually are 640 in a hoard, 320 in a hoardlet, and 186 in a hoardito.
The term "hoardito" is seldom used today.  However, the general definition
of a hoard is "more stuff than you can hold without dropping it".

Bruce

 
 
 

How Much is concidered a hoard?

Post by John M. Kleebe » Wed, 26 May 2004 12:03:46


Kevin < how many of any one coin do you need to have it

Quote:
> considered a hoard lets say silver dollars?

Obviously there's usage in casual conversation and writing to mean "a
lot," but the numismatic scholars who have grappled with this concept
have come up with very low thresholds: either two coins, or eight
coins.

John Casey, Understanding Ancient Coins (1986), says two coins: "For
practical purposes the minimum size for a hoard is just two coins and
the qualifying factor which creates a hoard is that the coins should
have come together in some deliberate manner." (page 51).

I have drafted the following definition for a hoard (partly because I
find "deliberate manner" too vague): Two or more coins or other
valuable objects, removed from circulation and intentionally
concealed, usually with the purpose of eventual recovery.  So I follow
Casey on the "two coins" idea.

Breaking it down into its elements, this definition includes (1) Two
coins (2) removed from circulation (3) intentionally (4) concealed,
(5) usually with the purpose of eventual recovery.  The basic point is
that money is a store of value and a medium of exchange, but when it
is hoarded, it is used as a store of value only and not as a medium of
exchange.

Another useful concept, which I will probably add to my definition of
a hoard, comes from the legal equivalent of a hoard, treasure trove.
The courts have held that "treasure trove carries with it the thought
of antiquity," so if an accumulation of money is recovered fifty years
or more after concealment it is treasure trove, but if only ten years
afterwards, it is not treasure trove.

There are, however, other schools of thought. The Polish numismatist
Stanislaw Suchodolski only considers parcels hoards when they reach
the threshold of eight coins or more; below that they are casual finds
(called single finds by those of us who operate with the "two coins"
threshold).  There is something to be said for this point of view,
because a casual loss of a 1907 cent can happen at any time from 1907
until the present day (although it's unlikely; I suspect that most
cents dropped on the street date within the last ten years).  On the
other hand, if you find a hoard of 2000 1905 cents, 2000 1906 cents,
and 150 1907 cents, it is more reasonable to say that it was deposited
in 1907 - and not 1908, for the hoarder stopped adding coins of that
period.

Just to give you a general idea, here is the size of some famous US
hoards (AE = copper coin, AR = silver coin, AV = gold coin):
Goodhue-Nichols find (early date large cents): 1000 AE
Randall Hoard (middle date large cents): 14,000 AE
LaVere Redfield (silver dollars): 407,596 AR
Nuestra Senora de Atocha (shipwreck, not a hoard; Spanish-American
cobs): 67 AV, 180,000 AR

As for the upper limit - the sky's really the limit here.  If the
Treasury accumulation of silver dollars is considered a hoard, then we
are talking of hundreds of millions of coins.  One of the largest
hoards ever assembled by a private person was $20 million in paper
currency, hidden in oil drums with special drainage to keep the
currency dry, put away by a Puerto Rican female drug kingpin around
1990.  She didn't recover the money.  The money was hidden in
wasteland next to one of the poorest barrios in Puerto Rico.  The
authorities only learned about the hoard when the inhabitants of the
barrio began to drive the flashiest cars in all of Puerto Rico.  The
barrio had found the hoard, dug it up and distributed it.  The US
Attorney for the District of Puerto Rico threatened to bring a
forfeiture action, because it was drug money, but happily didn't; I
guess he didn't want everyone on Puerto Rico cursing him for the rest
of his life.

John M. Kleeberg

 
 
 

How Much is concidered a hoard?

Post by Scot Kamin » Wed, 26 May 2004 13:10:42




Quote:
> 186 in a hoardito

Darn. I thought "hoardito" was "a whole damn potful."  Shows you the
real worth of a classical education.

Scot Kamins
--
"Speak your truth, even as your voice quakes."

 
 
 

How Much is concidered a hoard?

Post by Anka » Wed, 26 May 2004 13:27:48


"Obviously there's usage in casual conversation and writing to mean 'a lot,'
but the numismatic scholars who have grappled with this concept have come up
with very low thresholds: either two coins, or eight coins.

John Casey, Understanding Ancient Coins (1986), says two coins: 'For practical
purposes the minimum size for a hoard is just two coins and the qualifying
factor which creates a hoard is that the coins should have come together in
some deliberate manner.' (page 51).

I have drafted the following definition for a hoard (partly because I find
'deliberate manner' too vague): Two or more coins or other valuable objects,
removed from circulation and intentionally concealed, usually with the purpose
of eventual recovery.  So I follow Casey on the 'two coins' idea.

Breaking it down into its elements, this definition includes (1) Two coins (2)
removed from circulation (3) intentionally (4) concealed, (5) usually with the
purpose of eventual recovery.  The basic point is
that money is a store of value and a medium of exchange, but when it is
hoarded, it is used as a store of value only and not as a medium of exchange.

Another useful concept, which I will probably add to my definition of a hoard,
comes from the legal equivalent of a hoard, treasure trove.
The courts have held that 'treasure trove carries with it the thought of
antiquity,' so if an accumulation of money is recovered fifty years or more
after concealment it is treasure trove, but if only ten years afterwards, it is
not treasure trove.

There are, however, other schools of thought. The Polish numismatist Stanislaw
Suchodolski only considers parcels hoards when they reach the threshold of
eight coins or more; below that they are casual finds (called single finds by
those of us who operate with the 'two coins' threshold).  There is something to
be said for this point of view, because a casual loss of a 1907 cent can happen
at any time from 1907 until the present day (although it's unlikely; I suspect
that most cents dropped on the street date within the last ten years).  On the
other hand, if you find a hoard of 2000 1905 cents, 2000 1906 cents, and 150
1907 cents, it is more reasonable to say that it was deposited
in 1907 - and not 1908, for the hoarder stopped adding coins of that period.

Just to give you a general idea, here is the size of some famous US hoards (AE
= copper coin, AR = silver coin, AV = gold coin):
Goodhue-Nichols find (early date large cents): 1000 AE
Randall Hoard (middle date large cents): 14,000 AE
LaVere Redfield (silver dollars): 407,596 AR
Nuestra Senora de Atocha (shipwreck, not a hoard; Spanish-American
cobs): 67 AV, 180,000 AR

As for the upper limit - the sky's really the limit here.  If the Treasury
accumulation of silver dollars is considered a hoard, then we are talking of
hundreds of millions of coins.  One of the largest hoards ever assembled by a
private person was $20 million in paper currency, hidden in oil drums with
special drainage to keep the
currency dry, put away by a Puerto Rican female drug kingpin around 1990.  She
didn't recover the money.  The money was hidden in wasteland next to one of the
poorest barrios in Puerto Rico.  The
authorities only learned about the hoard when the inhabitants of the barrio
began to drive the flashiest cars in all of Puerto Rico.  The barrio had found
the hoard, dug it up and distributed it.  The US Attorney for the District of
Puerto Rico threatened to bring a forfeiture action, because it was drug money,
but happily didn't; I guess he didn't want everyone on Puerto Rico cursing him
for the rest of his life."

Thank you, John for this veritable treasure trove on information on hoards!
Very interesting!

Anka

 
 
 

How Much is concidered a hoard?

Post by Shystev » Wed, 26 May 2004 14:36:07


Quote:
>I had a friend who once (in 1973) wrote the US Government a letter asking:
>"How
>much is in a sh*tload?"

>He actually got a reply, from the US Department of Weights & Measures.  It
>said:

>"The unit of measure you requested information on is not officially
>recognized
>by the US Government" or something to that effect.

>8-|
> - Coin Saver

Now the politically correct Recognized Government answer should be:
When you can fit 10 or more politicians into a room at one time it is
considered a Sh*tload......
Or is that a load of Sh*t?     One of them....Well okay maybe both.
LOL
Steve
 
 
 

How Much is concidered a hoard?

Post by Fred » Thu, 27 May 2004 00:57:43


Well, I have about 100 pounds of bulk silver spanning from 1877 to 1964.
Roosevelt, Mercury, Barber and even some Seated Liberty Dimes.  Washington,
SLQ's, Barber Quarters.  Barber, Franklin and Kennedy Halves. Morgan and
peace Dollars and some one ounce silver rounds.

I like to consider this a hoard.  It consists of 100's upon 100's of silver
coins and weighs just slightly over a hundred pounds.

Fred

Quote:
> just a quick question, how many of any one coin do you need to have it
> considered a hoard lets say silver dollars?

 
 
 

How Much is concidered a hoard?

Post by PCamero » Thu, 27 May 2004 06:18:12



Quote:
> Well, I have about 100 pounds of bulk silver spanning from 1877 to 1964.
> Roosevelt, Mercury, Barber and even some Seated Liberty Dimes.
Washington,
> SLQ's, Barber Quarters.  Barber, Franklin and Kennedy Halves. Morgan and
> peace Dollars and some one ounce silver rounds.

> I like to consider this a hoard.  It consists of 100's upon 100's of
silver
> coins and weighs just slightly over a hundred pounds.

I have close to 1500 silver quarters (1932-1964).  If that is not a hoard I
don't know what is.