Found Collection

by **HARDOXD** » Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:08:37

I recently looked at a nice collection for sale. Included was a Trade Dollar,
Grade XF or a bit better, but 4 chopmarks. 2 Obverse, 2 Reverse.
I offered $50. The seller thought that was way too low. Was I way off?
I like the coin, even with the chops, which add alot of character. Figured I'd
add
it to my collection as an oddity. By the way, it was 1875-S.

Advice please?

Thanks, Dan

by **Byron L. Reed - Bust Dime Fre** » Sun, 28 Jan 2001 06:50:44

Quote:

>Was I way off?

Probably.

There are two types of Trade Dollar Collectors in this world -- those who
collect coins with chop marks, and those who collect coins without. They each
seem to have their own pricing system, too. Sometimes, the more chop marks,
the higher a coin sells for.

Rather than***er about the price, find one that is unmarked.

BLReed

SARCHASM: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the reader who
doesn't get it.

GOT BUSTS? http://www.FoundCollection.com/

by **Richard Adam** » Sun, 28 Jan 2001 07:36:14

Quote:

> >Was I way off?

> Probably.

All depends. What's missing here is the date and mint mark. An 1878cc
with chopmarks would still fetch over $1,000.

Quote:

> There are two types of Trade Dollar Collectors in this world -- those
who
> collect coins with chop marks, and those who collect coins without.
They each
> seem to have their own pricing system, too. Sometimes, the more chop
marks,
> the higher a coin sells for.

Number of chops isn't usually the determing factor. Quality and type
play a significant role. A trade dollar with only a partial chop, as it
were struck at and angle, would be of little interest to the chop
collector. A coin with the features obliterated by repeated chopping
would also be of little interest, save as an example piece. A host coin
with clear, full chops is more desirable.

I've had similar experience. There are some "sellers" who believe the
presence of chops enhances the value above book, which seems rather
absurd even to a collector of chopmarks. Chopmarked pieces regularly
come up on eBay and if you wait around, can be had for $35 or so for the
more common date and mint marks.

Below is a link to an excellent online chopmark resource in English and
Espanol, created by Manuel Jos Sos Gallen:

http://www.chopmarks.com

--
----------------------------------------------------------
* Richard Adams, ANA R-195237 ackthpt(at)concentric.net *
----------------------------------------------------------

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by **HARDOXD** » Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:46:08

Thanks for your responses. And the link to the Chopmarks page was much
appreciated.

Dan

by **Aram H. Haroutuni** » Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:27:01

Or else, learn to read Chinese. :-) Aram.
==============================

Quote:

>>Was I way off?

>Probably.

>There are two types of Trade Dollar Collectors in this world -- those who
>collect coins with chop marks, and those who collect coins without. They each
>seem to have their own pricing system, too. Sometimes, the more chop marks,
>the higher a coin sells for.

>Rather than***er about the price, find one that is unmarked.

>BLReed

>SARCHASM: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the reader who
>doesn't get it.

>GOT BUSTS? http://www.FoundCollection.com/

by **AnswerMa** » Mon, 29 Jan 2001 01:15:51

I'm sure this is not going to endear me to the chopmark collectors, but they
are technically an alteration of the coin. As such there is absolutely no way
to tell when or where the chopmarks were applied to the coin. They may never
have gotten farther "east" than San Francisco.

A little known fact is that when the government redeemed the Trade dollars,
they refused any with chopmarks, leaving literally millions of coins in the
lurch. So, to find buyers the sellers created the myth that chopmarks added to
the collector value of the coins. If you like chopmarks, fine, but don't pay a
premium for them. Nobody can guarantee that your chops are "genuine."
Alan Herbert

by **enya..** » Mon, 29 Jan 2001 04:41:37

Quote:

> A little known fact is that when the government redeemed the Trade dollars,
> they refused any with chopmarks, leaving literally millions of coins in the
> lurch. So, to find buyers the sellers created the myth that chopmarks added to
> the collector value of the coins. If you like chopmarks, fine, but don't pay a
> premium for them. Nobody can guarantee that your chops are "genuine."
> Alan Herbert

Well, sure, chops can't be guaranteed, but that story doesn't make sense
to me. Why would somebody take a perfectly fine trade dollar and add
chops, thereby decreasing it's value? As far as I can remember, chopped
coins have always sold for less than unchopped ones. I know you say that
they created a myth that chopped coins had some extra value, but that
would've been for coins already chopped. The ones without chops would've
been already redeemed by those concerned with not getting "stuck" with
them. They're not going to take a redeemable dollar and add to their
pile of unredeemable dollars. The only way chops would've been added
later is if someone bought into the myth, but I think it unlikely. Plus
at the time of redemption, I doubt there were that many collectors of
Trade dollars, let alone chopmarked ones, that it would've been feasible
to try to create a market for chopped dollars at a premium. I think
people concerned with getting rid of their chopped dollars would've been
content just getting their bullion value from someone.

Dan

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by **Richard Adam** » Mon, 29 Jan 2001 05:07:55

Quote:

> > A little known fact is that when the government redeemed the Trade dollars,
> > they refused any with chopmarks, leaving literally millions of coins in the
> > lurch. So, to find buyers the sellers created the myth that chopmarks added to
> > the collector value of the coins. If you like chopmarks, fine, but don't pay a
> > premium for them. Nobody can guarantee that your chops are "genuine."
> > Alan Herbert

> Well, sure, chops can't be guaranteed, but that story doesn't make sense
> to me. Why would somebody take a perfectly fine trade dollar and add
> chops, thereby decreasing it's value?

Recall, what timeframe Alan is indicating here. Back then a trade dollar was just
another dollar, albeit 4 grains heavier. If a trade dollar arrived aboard a
merchant ship with a chopmark and a bank refused it, how would you get rid of it?
Typically the merchants in the orient were more interested in silver by weight and
suspicious of new designs. The trade dollar met with limited success. Perhaps an
interesting couple of chops to say "lucky" or "good fortune" would make them
interesting as a novelty.

Quote:

> . I think
> people concerned with getting rid of their chopped dollars would've been
> content just getting their bullion value from someone.

Assuming the price of silver wasn't less than face.

Entered the fray with her own Trade Dollars and silver Yen, 420 and 416 grains of
900 fineness, respectively. As gold and silver prices fluctuated Japan struggled
with gold flowing out of the country and demonitized millions of silver yen with the
'gin' stamp, effectively making it bullion. Gin stamped coins are usually cataloged
lower than unstamped issues, although it can be extremely challenging to assemble a
full set of Left and Right Gin marked coins.

I'm actually going through my japanese Yen and Trade Dollars, at the moment, as it's
become quite a pile and needs organizing again.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
* Richard Adams, ANA r-195237 ackthpt(at)concentric.net *
* Free IQ Test:Insert Quarter Here -> ========= *
----------------------------------------------------------

by **enya..** » Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:34:15

Quote:

> > > A little known fact is that when the government redeemed the Trade dollars,
> > > they refused any with chopmarks, leaving literally millions of coins in the
> > > lurch. So, to find buyers the sellers created the myth that chopmarks added to
> > > the collector value of the coins. If you like chopmarks, fine, but don't pay a
> > > premium for them. Nobody can guarantee that your chops are "genuine."
> > > Alan Herbert

> > Well, sure, chops can't be guaranteed, but that story doesn't make sense
> > to me. Why would somebody take a perfectly fine trade dollar and add
> > chops, thereby decreasing it's value?

> Recall, what timeframe Alan is indicating here. Back then a trade dollar was just
> another dollar, albeit 4 grains heavier. If a trade dollar arrived aboard a
> merchant ship with a chopmark and a bank refused it, how would you get rid of it?

I wouldn't start running around town crying "Look here! Rare chopmarked
dollars! Only a $1.25!" Not worth the effort. Not likely to find a
buyer. If there is some published account that there was some kinda
market premium for chopmarked dollars in those days, then I'll beleive
it. Most likely people sold or traded them for their bullion value,
whatever that may have been, and took a loss.

Quote:

> Typically the merchants in the orient were more interested in silver by weight and
> suspicious of new designs. The trade dollar met with limited success. Perhaps an
> interesting couple of chops to say "lucky" or "good fortune" would make them
> interesting as a novelty.

To whom? The merchants in the orient? Fine, but that would still have
been a contemporary chop. Or did you mean to collectors in the US? Okay,
but there was an already abundant supply of chopped dollars to serve as
novelties. Why the need to create more? And if it was common knowledge a
chopped coin couldn't be redeemed at a bank, why take a redeemable
dollar and chop it, in a risky attempt to get $2 for it, when it's
unlikely there would be any takers? Alan seemed to be implying that
chops were added later to make coins worth more. I don't disbelieve that
people may have said chopped coins were worth more, but that would have
been for their already chopped coins. Obviously, those people were aware
that wasn't true and that they were better off leaving any unchopped
coins in their possession to remain that way.

Quote:

> > . I think
> > people concerned with getting rid of their chopped dollars would've been
> > content just getting their bullion value from someone.

> Assuming the price of silver wasn't less than face.

But they weren't going to get a dollar from the government anyway,
people would've taken anything close to a dollar. Just seems to me if it
was common knowledge the things weren't worth face, that there would be
very few buyers of them at a premium.

Dan

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by **enya..** » Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:20:45

AFAIK, collecting trade dollars has usually been somewhat unpopular with
collectors from the earliest days, and chopmarked ones even more so. If
there is some evidence that a chopmarked dollar fetched more than one of
the same date-mint in similar grade, I would like to know about it.

Dan

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by **Richard Adam** » Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:59:25

There have been many chopmarked coins which have gone for premiums. One in
particular was this 1880-S half-eagle featured in a Heritage auction:
http://www.heritagecoin.com/info/PressReleases/4252000Chopmarked.html

More info here:
http://www.coinlink.com/pr/hrcg0426.html

I gave up well below the realized $2,300. (1999 Redbook is $145 for an
XF40)

Chopmarks have had interest, including in the past, when they have commanded
good prices. My introduction to them was as an avenue to less expensive
coins. Sometimes that doesn't hold true, including some which have realized
very good prices. As Alan says, they are a modified coin, and as such the
who and the when could be difficult to verify. That does not mean there are
not genuine specimens and considerable interest in them. There is a
Chopmark Collectors club, of which I am a recently joined member, and it's
members pursue these coins with great interest.

Depending upon the year and type they still command premiums, no less so
than certain counterstamps. I suggest picking up a copy of Brunk's book on
Merchant Countermarks if you wish to learn more about them.

One last point. Don't consider coins exclusively from an american or
euro-centric point of view. Many collectors of these pieces are from Japan,
Philipines, Taiwan and China. Manuel Jose Sos Gallen, the owner of
www.chopmarks.com, is a citizen of Spain.

Quote:

> AFAIK, collecting trade dollars has usually been somewhat unpopular with
> collectors from the earliest days, and chopmarked ones even more so. If
> there is some evidence that a chopmarked dollar fetched more than one of
> the same date-mint in similar grade, I would like to know about it.

> Dan

> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/

--
----------------------------------------------------------
* Richard Adams, ANA r-195237 ackthpt(at)concentric.net *
* Free IQ Test:Insert Quarter Here -> ========= *
----------------------------------------------------------

by **Fred A. Murph** » Sat, 03 Feb 2001 02:20:22

Quote:

> A little known fact is that when the government redeemed the Trade
> dollars,
> they refused any with chopmarks, leaving literally millions of coins in
> the
> lurch. So, to find buyers the sellers created the myth that chopmarks
> added to
> the collector value of the coins. If you like chopmarks, fine, but don't
> pay a
> premium for them. Nobody can guarantee that your chops are "genuine."

I always understood that the government only redeemed them as bullion, not
as legal tender, which is why they sold for under face back in the 40s and
50s. If that was the case, or even if it wasn't, since chop marks don't
remove metal, on what grounds could they refuse chopped pieces?

--

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Found Collection

Chopmarked Trade Dollar. Advice Please

Chopmarked Trade Dollar. Advice Please

Chopmarked Trade Dollar. Advice Please

Chopmarked Trade Dollar. Advice Please

Chopmarked Trade Dollar. Advice Please

Chopmarked Trade Dollar. Advice Please

Chopmarked Trade Dollar. Advice Please

Chopmarked Trade Dollar. Advice Please

Chopmarked Trade Dollar. Advice Please

Chopmarked Trade Dollar. Advice Please

Chopmarked Trade Dollar. Advice Please

Chopmarked Trade Dollar. Advice Please

Chopmarked Trade Dollar. Advice Please