1857-S Double Eagles from the S.S. Central America

1857-S Double Eagles from the S.S. Central America

Post by pakrat » Tue, 07 Mar 2000 04:00:00



Here's a question for you....

Were the coins that were recovered from the S.S. Central America by the
Columbus-America Discovery Group cleaned?

Wouldn't they have to have been cleaned to remove the sediment etc.?

What do you think the odds are that PCGS indicated that the coins were
cleaned when they graded them?  Or, do you think they only mentioned their
origin?

What's your thoughts?

Robert..//

 
 
 

1857-S Double Eagles from the S.S. Central America

Post by David Rya » Tue, 07 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> Here's a question for you....

> Were the coins that were recovered from the S.S. Central America by the
> Columbus-America Discovery Group cleaned?

> Wouldn't they have to have been cleaned to remove the sediment etc.?

> What do you think the odds are that PCGS indicated that the coins were
> cleaned when they graded them?  Or, do you think they only mentioned
> their origin?

> What's your thoughts?

> Robert..//

A great many "cleaned" and "dipped" coins are in slabs of all
services with no mention of it.  If you go down Teletrade's
auction list, every coin that is described as having hairlines
shows evidence of having been cleaned or dusted off.  Light to
moderate hairlines are lumped in with other marks to lower the
grade so long as they are not too distracting.

Some will say that those are the submissions of the big dealers
and they may very well be right.
--
** DO NOT CLEAN COINS!  (experts and ancients, at own risk ;-)

2000 is NOT the 21st century.  2001 is.  You can look it up at U.S.
Naval Observatory http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/faq/docs/millennium.html

"Carthage must be destroyed!"  Cato the Elder, inventor of dot sigs

 
 
 

1857-S Double Eagles from the S.S. Central America

Post by Richard Adam » Tue, 07 Mar 2000 04:00:00


I'm completely blown away by the prices I'm seeing for Atocha salvage.  I'm
wondering if famous-wreck will apply some premium to these pieces.  For the
most, my shipwreck pieces, uncleaned as they are :) have been from less known
wrecks.  Some darn fine pieces they are for much less.
Quote:

> Here's a question for you....

> Were the coins that were recovered from the S.S. Central America by the
> Columbus-America Discovery Group cleaned?

> Wouldn't they have to have been cleaned to remove the sediment etc.?

> What do you think the odds are that PCGS indicated that the coins were
> cleaned when they graded them?  Or, do you think they only mentioned their
> origin?

> What's your thoughts?

> Robert..//

 
 
 

1857-S Double Eagles from the S.S. Central America

Post by JSTONE93 » Wed, 08 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

>> What do you think the odds are that PCGS indicated that the coins were
>> cleaned when they graded them?  Or, do you think they only mentioned their
>> origin?

I'm pretty sure the origin will be mentioned
on the slab (its a selling point) and no
mention at all if they were cleaned.
Having the origin on the slab would probably discourage breakouts and
resubmissions since wouldn't you lose
the "pedigree" unless you sent along the
old slab?
 
 
 

1857-S Double Eagles from the S.S. Central America

Post by pakrat » Wed, 08 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Here is some of the prices quoted for the recovered 1857-S Eagles:

GRADE PRICE

MS-66 $29,500
MS-65 15,500
MS-64 9,900
MS-63 7,100
MS-62 5,550
AU-58 3,600

Robert..//


Quote:
> I'm completely blown away by the prices I'm seeing for Atocha salvage.
I'm
> wondering if famous-wreck will apply some premium to these pieces.  For
the
> most, my shipwreck pieces, uncleaned as they are :) have been from less
known
> wrecks.  Some darn fine pieces they are for much less.


> > Here's a question for you....

> > Were the coins that were recovered from the S.S. Central America by the
> > Columbus-America Discovery Group cleaned?

> > Wouldn't they have to have been cleaned to remove the sediment etc.?

> > What do you think the odds are that PCGS indicated that the coins were
> > cleaned when they graded them?  Or, do you think they only mentioned
their
> > origin?

> > What's your thoughts?

> > Robert..//

 
 
 

1857-S Double Eagles from the S.S. Central America

Post by BillChi » Wed, 08 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Yes, the vast majority of the treasure ship coins were treated
in some way.  PCGS uses a more polite term than cleaned and it
is not noted on the holder.  The S. S. Central America coins are
in a pocketbook size leather holder.

Rick Montgomery wrote an editorial response in Coin World.
Something to the effect that what was done to the coins was akin
to removing some chocolate syrup spilt on the coins.  I
encourage everyone to make up their own mind about cleaning in
general, and this cache of coins in particular.
- Bill

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

 
 
 

1857-S Double Eagles from the S.S. Central America

Post by Bob Peters » Wed, 08 Mar 2000 04:00:00



Quote:

>Yes, the vast majority of the treasure ship coins were treated
>in some way.  PCGS uses a more polite term than cleaned and it
>is not noted on the holder.  The S. S. Central America coins are
>in a pocketbook size leather holder.

>Rick Montgomery wrote an editorial response in Coin World.
>Something to the effect that what was done to the coins was akin
>to removing some chocolate syrup spilt on the coins.  I
>encourage everyone to make up their own mind about cleaning in
>general, and this cache of coins in particular.
>- Bill

One could argue that this once again shows how PCGS bows its standards to
benefit the big guys in the business.  OTOH - this is a legit big deal and
collectors are going to want these coins, and want them in PCGS holders.  The
fact that they are labeled in such a way as to indicate that they are part of
this discovery means they were in the ocean and that should tell anyone that
sees the label that they have been cleaned in some way.

In PCGS's defense (not that they need me to defend them) they have generally
done a fine job of authenticating and grading coins.  The few abberations that
pop up from time to time are probably the result of their own submitters taking
advantage of them, not PCGS themselves letting something slide.  The mass coin
grading they do for the big guys is bound to result in an occassional coin that
slips through.  The reason that these are so obvious is that they are quite
unusual.

It does appear that they do give the big guys more benefit of the doubt as far
as what constitutes a "cleaned" coin, but I don't see there is any way around
that.  The other day I examined about 40 bright white UNC silver dollars.
These suckers were so white they made my eyes hurt.  Were they dipped or
cleaned?  Maybe.  If so, it was 30 years ago cause the guy that showed them to
me said they were in a safe deposit box that long, and I tend to believe him.


Learn all about how the NSA spys on you.  Search on "Project Echelon" at your
favorite search engine.  Another service brought to you by the Clintons.

 
 
 

1857-S Double Eagles from the S.S. Central America

Post by Bruce Greenblat » Wed, 08 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Or if you look at eBay, you can see David Hall's auctions, which currently say:

    Item        Start           End                          Price
Title
 274497327 Mar-02-00 Mar-12-00 18:30:21 $3,560.00 S S Central America 1857-S
$20 Gold PCGS MS61
 274497469 Mar-02-00 Mar-12-00 18:26:22 $3,460.00 S S Central America 1857-S
$20 Gold PCGS MS61
 274497751 Mar-02-00 Mar-12-00 18:26:08 $4,100.00 S S Central America 1857-S
$20 Gold PCGS MS62
 274497921 Mar-02-00 Mar-12-00 18:21:37 $4,100.00 S S Central America 1857-S
$20 Gold PCGS MS62
 274498010 Mar-02-00 Mar-12-00 18:21:25 $5,750.00 S S Central America 1857-S
$20 Gold PCGS MS63
 274498121 Mar-02-00 Mar-12-00 18:16:26 $5,525.00 S S Central America 1857-S
$20 Gold PCGS MS63
 274498339 Mar-02-00 Mar-12-00 18:16:20 $8,100.00 S S Central America 1857-S
$20 Gold PCGS MS64
 274498455 Mar-02-00 Mar-12-00 18:11:54 $8,450.00 S S Central America 1857-S
$20 Gold PCGS MS64
 274498580 Mar-02-00 Mar-12-00 18:11:42 $13,100.00 S S Central America 1857-S
$20 Gold PCGS MS65
 274498693 Mar-02-00 Mar-12-00 18:00:03 $25,100.00 S S Central America 1857-S
$20 Gold PCGS MS66

So, you can get a little better price...

Quote:

> Here is some of the prices quoted for the recovered 1857-S Eagles:

> GRADE PRICE

> MS-66 $29,500
> MS-65 15,500
> MS-64 9,900
> MS-63 7,100
> MS-62 5,550
> AU-58 3,600

> Robert..//



> > I'm completely blown away by the prices I'm seeing for Atocha salvage.
> I'm
> > wondering if famous-wreck will apply some premium to these pieces.  For
> the
> > most, my shipwreck pieces, uncleaned as they are :) have been from less
> known
> > wrecks.  Some darn fine pieces they are for much less.


> > > Here's a question for you....

> > > Were the coins that were recovered from the S.S. Central America by the
> > > Columbus-America Discovery Group cleaned?

> > > Wouldn't they have to have been cleaned to remove the sediment etc.?

> > > What do you think the odds are that PCGS indicated that the coins were
> > > cleaned when they graded them?  Or, do you think they only mentioned
> their
> > > origin?

> > > What's your thoughts?

> > > Robert..//

 
 
 

1857-S Double Eagles from the S.S. Central America

Post by Peter T. Davi » Wed, 08 Mar 2000 04:00:00


: It does appear that they do give the big guys more benefit of the doubt as far
: as what constitutes a "cleaned" coin, but I don't see there is any way around
: that.

It is a question of credibility.  When they make exceptions for "the
big guys" on this one point, the question that immediately comes up is
how many other exceptions have they made for "the big guys"?  Does a
coin submitted by "the big guys" get MS-65, but the same exact coin is
graded MS-64 when submitted by anyone else?
Should we assume that they are credulous?  With regular submissions, I
would say that it's rather inconsistant instead.  There are some kinds
of business transactions that you would expect a company to make huge
exceptions for their big customers.  However, a grading service needs
to gain a reputatoin of objectiveness in order to be fully trusted.
Peter

 
 
 

1857-S Double Eagles from the S.S. Central America

Post by Fred A. Murph » Thu, 09 Mar 2000 04:00:00



Quote:
> It is a question of credibility.  When they make exceptions for "the
> big guys" on this one point, the question that immediately comes up is
> how many other exceptions have they made for "the big guys"?  Does a
> coin submitted by "the big guys" get MS-65, but the same exact coin is
> graded MS-64 when submitted by anyone else?

There has been commentary to that exact type of thing happening.  Oh?  That
is a (graded) Ms63?  You must have gotten that from so-and-so.  They lket
satuff like that slide through for him all the time.

When a third-party dealer can tell you where you bought a coin by the grade
on the holder, then there's some hocus-pocus going on.

 
 
 

1857-S Double Eagles from the S.S. Central America

Post by JSTONE93 » Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:00:00


How many of these coins are there and
what are the prices they are asking?
 
 
 

1857-S Double Eagles from the S.S. Central America

Post by David Rya » Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> How many of these coins are there and
> what are the prices they are asking?

In mint state, about 5200, vs. an existing population of 37 (NGC
and PCGS).  The pre-release Numismedia fmv was around $6200 (MS62),
more expensive than the 1865-S whose population was recently
augmented from the Brother Jonathan shipwreck to 500 from 250
and whose price continues to drop at $5660 (MS62).  David Hall
has a few on eBay, I suppose testing the waters.  Two MS62s have
a starting bid of $4100.  3 days left in a 10 day auction and the
top price has risen only to $4250 which I don't think bodes
well for the rest.  I've posted several times on them, with
comparisons to Brother Jonathan and Wells Fargo G$20 hoards.

I'm a buyer at MS62-$2K or so.
Or maybe I'm dreaming :)

In addition, there are about 2300 1854-S, 55-S, 56-S, and other
US and foreign coins.

www.sscentralamerica.com/
--
2000 is NOT the 21st century.  2001 is.  You can look it up at U.S.
Naval Observatory http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/faq/docs/millennium.html

"Carthage must be destroyed!"  Cato the Elder, inventor of dot sigs