MS66 BROWN 1902 Indian Cent

MS66 BROWN 1902 Indian Cent

Post by Richard DeLu » Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:27:53



Hi,
I recall a thread here recently that talked about copper needing to be red
for this high a grade.  Am I remembering correctly?  

A vest pocket dealer in my area has a 1902 NGCA-slabbed MS66 Indian cent
for sale.  There's not a hint of red, but it is beautifully struck and
flawless.  Looks just brown until you twist it in the daylight, when you
see beautiful iridescence in olive, blue and magenta.  Subtle, but pretty.

I am absolutely ***ed to nice Indian Cents, and I already have a raw
1902 Indian in full blazing red, but am seriously considering this coin.
The dealer (whom I've dealt with before) wants $250 for this coin, and I'm
not sure I can get a break on the price.  Should I even consider it?  And
how often do you see MS66 Indians?

Unless someone here convinces me otherwise, I may just bite the bullet and
take it home anyway...............:-)

Thanks for any discussion,
Rich

--
In the beginning there was nothing, and God said, "Let there be light."

And there was still nothing, but you could see it.

 
 
 

MS66 BROWN 1902 Indian Cent

Post by twette » Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:56:56


Quote:

> Hi,
> I recall a thread here recently that talked about copper needing to be red
> for this high a grade.  Am I remembering correctly?

> A vest pocket dealer in my area has a 1902 NGCA-slabbed MS66 Indian cent
> for sale.  There's not a hint of red, but it is beautifully struck and
> flawless.  Looks just brown until you twist it in the daylight, when you
> see beautiful iridescence in olive, blue and magenta.  Subtle, but pretty.

> I am absolutely ***ed to nice Indian Cents, and I already have a raw
> 1902 Indian in full blazing red, but am seriously considering this coin.
> The dealer (whom I've dealt with before) wants $250 for this coin, and I'm
> not sure I can get a break on the price.  Should I even consider it?  And
> how often do you see MS66 Indians?

They aren't too common, but they are available. A 1902 NGC MS66RB just went off
on Teletrade (2 days ago) and realized $260. Coin Universe lists $182 for the 66
in Brown, so you should be able to get one for $150 or better.
Quote:
> Unless someone here convinces me otherwise, I may just bite the bullet and
> take it home anyway...............:-)

> Thanks for any discussion,
> Rich

> --
> In the beginning there was nothing, and God said, "Let there be light."

> And there was still nothing, but you could see it.


 
 
 

MS66 BROWN 1902 Indian Cent

Post by Deven Atkins » Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:04:06



Quote:
>Hi,
>I recall a thread here recently that talked about copper needing to be red
>for this high a grade.  Am I remembering correctly?  

There is some contention about it.  Some say yes, others say no.
The ANA wording for MS-65 includes the phrase "may be brilliant or lightly
toned".  A full brown coin would be heavily toned; it has no luster.
This is the standard I go by.  

That said, there are coins out there that are so fully struck, so contact
mark free, so spot free, and such a nice evenly toned brown that they might
(or even should always) sell for the same money as an MS-66 RED coin.
I personally think it is wrong to slab these as MS-66.  They should be
slabbed MS-60, and the coin's exeptional attributes should be listed.

Coin Trends (in Coin World) seems to support this position.  For
copper/bronze coinage they list only Red-Brown (RB) or Red (R) for the
grades above MS60.

Quote:

>A vest pocket dealer in my area has a 1902 NGCA-slabbed MS66 Indian cent
>for sale.  There's not a hint of red, but it is beautifully struck and
>flawless.  Looks just brown until you twist it in the daylight, when you
>see beautiful iridescence in olive, blue and magenta.  Subtle, but pretty.

>I am absolutely ***ed to nice Indian Cents, and I already have a raw
>1902 Indian in full blazing red, but am seriously considering this coin.
>The dealer (whom I've dealt with before) wants $250 for this coin, and I'm
>not sure I can get a break on the price.  Should I even consider it?  And
>how often do you see MS66 Indians?

>Unless someone here convinces me otherwise, I may just bite the bullet and
>take it home anyway...............:-)

>Thanks for any discussion,
>Rich

Deven Atkinson

--
http://www.FoundCollection.com/~deven/pennylane.htm
The road to all things Numismatic
 
 
 

MS66 BROWN 1902 Indian Cent

Post by Tim Irv » Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:22:24


On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:56:56 -0500, Tom

Quote:

> A 1902 NGC MS66RB just went off
>on Teletrade (2 days ago) and realized $260. Coin Universe lists $182 for the 66
>in Brown, so you should be able to get one for $150 or better.

$150?

The problem is that you have to wait for the right opportunity.  These
are quite rare if the population reports are to be believed, and they
don't appear terribly often.

And also keep in mind that December and January are horrible months
of the year for auctions because a lot of people are strapped for
cash (bah, humbug).  Even if this really was a true 66 in a reputable
slab, given the timing it's probably an anomaly.

Given that this is sight-seen from a dealer, I think the price is
reasonable if the coin truly measures up to the grade.

--

"Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and
demand that they respect yours...Abuse no one and nothing, for abuse
turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision."
                -- Tecumseh (1768-1813), Shawnee chief and statesman

 
 
 

MS66 BROWN 1902 Indian Cent

Post by Tim Irv » Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:19:55



Quote:

>Hi,
>I recall a thread here recently that talked about copper needing to be red
>for this high a grade.  Am I remembering correctly?  

>A vest pocket dealer in my area has a 1902 NGCA-slabbed MS66 Indian cent
>for sale.  There's not a hint of red, but it is beautifully struck and
>flawless.  Looks just brown until you twist it in the daylight, when you
>see beautiful iridescence in olive, blue and magenta.  Subtle, but pretty.

NGCA?  Is that NGC?  I'd love to see this coin.  I'd be fascinated to
see what an MS-66 BN copper coin looks like, as I've never seen one.

Quote:
>I am absolutely ***ed to nice Indian Cents, and I already have a raw
>1902 Indian in full blazing red, but am seriously considering this coin.
>The dealer (whom I've dealt with before) wants $250 for this coin, and I'm
>not sure I can get a break on the price.  Should I even consider it?  And
>how often do you see MS66 Indians?

For what it's worth, Numismedia doesn't even *list* a value for an
MS-66 BN 1902 cent, though it has values for most other 20th century
dates in that condition (usually in the $300s).

Also, NGC's online Population report shows 3 MS-66 BN coins dated
1902, no brown coins finer.  (There is one MS-68 RD listed for 1902.
Wow!)

Quote:
>Unless someone here convinces me otherwise, I may just bite the bullet and
>take it home anyway...............:-)

Based on what I've been able to find, it sounds like a reasonable
price if you think it deserves the MS-66 designation.  Particularly if
it's not in an Accugrade slab.  :-)

--

"Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and
demand that they respect yours...Abuse no one and nothing, for abuse
turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision."
                -- Tecumseh (1768-1813), Shawnee chief and statesman

 
 
 

MS66 BROWN 1902 Indian Cent

Post by Richard DeLu » Fri, 12 Jan 2001 01:00:43



Quote:

> NGCA?  Is that NGC?  I'd love to see this coin.  I'd be fascinated to
> see what an MS-66 BN copper coin looks like, as I've never seen one.

> For what it's worth, Numismedia doesn't even *list* a value for an
> MS-66 BN 1902 cent, though it has values for most other 20th century
> dates in that condition (usually in the $300s).

> Also, NGC's online Population report shows 3 MS-66 BN coins dated
> 1902, no brown coins finer.  (There is one MS-68 RD listed for 1902.
> Wow!)

> Based on what I've been able to find, it sounds like a reasonable
> price if you think it deserves the MS-66 designation.  Particularly if
> it's not in an Accugrade slab.  :-)

Tim,

Yes, the coin is in an NGC slab.  The strike is magnificent , and there
are no spots or other distractions of any kind under low (5X)
magnification.  The color is a light brown, but iridescent when tipped.
If I actually buy this thing, I'll try and provide digital images. The NGC
census is a surprise to me- thank you for that.  

Best Regards,
Rich

 
 
 

MS66 BROWN 1902 Indian Cent

Post by Richard DeLu » Fri, 12 Jan 2001 01:13:06



Quote:

> Tim,

> Yes, the coin is in an NGC slab.  The strike is magnificent , and there
> are no spots or other distractions of any kind under low (5X)
> magnification.  The color is a light brown, but iridescent when tipped.
> If I actually buy this thing, I'll try and provide digital images. The NGC
> census is a surprise to me- thank you for that.  

> Best Regards,
> Rich

I'm sorry.  I meant to say that it shows no distractions under a **2X**
magnifier that I carry with me.  Big difference, I know.  Wish I had the
coin in front of me; I'm basing this on memory.
 
 
 

MS66 BROWN 1902 Indian Cent

Post by Stujo » Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:25:19




Quote:
> Hi,
> I recall a thread here recently that talked about copper needing to be red
> for this high a grade.  Am I remembering correctly?  

> A vest pocket dealer in my area has a 1902 NGCA-slabbed MS66 Indian cent
> for sale.  There's not a hint of red, but it is beautifully struck and
> flawless.  

From what I have read here, it sounds like it is rare for a BR to make
66. That would make me think the coin is pretty darn flawless and the
brown "dropped" it down to a 66 grade on the slab. It probably has all
the other qualities of an even higher grade coin. ...~but I am no
expert~...

--
SJ Miller

 
 
 

MS66 BROWN 1902 Indian Cent

Post by Richard DeLu » Sat, 13 Jan 2001 00:34:53



Quote:

> >I am absolutely ***ed to nice Indian Cents...

> Traitor.

> --

My friend, some of us are over our adolescent fascination with busts.
 
 
 

MS66 BROWN 1902 Indian Cent

Post by Richard DeLu » Sat, 13 Jan 2001 03:45:31



Quote:

> In fact, Anne is probably rolling in her grave right now. Poor thing.
> Died so young, only 36. Left behind three children and a grieving
> husband who would die only three years later. And here you go
> forsaking her for mere pennies. And pennies with a Caucasian Indian on
> the obverse, what a sham. Anne was the real McCoy (unless of course
> you listen too closely to R.W.), and an amazing lady, though not
> without her detractors, who criticized her and her husband for their
> aristocratic and anglophilic leanings. Still, does she deserve this,
> Richard? Well, at least she has Bermuda.

And some accused her husband of using her great beauty to foster his own career.
<but you knew that>

I'm not at all forsaking Anne Willing Bingham.  She gets a great deal of
genuine respect from me.  And who wasn't an anglophile in
post-Revolutionary Philadelphia?

Best Regards,
Rich

 
 
 

MS66 BROWN 1902 Indian Cent

Post by Richard DeLu » Sat, 13 Jan 2001 06:38:18


Just want to thank everyone for the help.  After some thought, I've
decided to buy this coin.  It's being held for me, and will be picked up
this weekend.

Rich