Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by gogu » Sat, 04 Jun 2005 08:00:43



http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20050603&hn=20259

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks
By Anadolu News Agency (aa)
Published: Thursday 02, 2005
zaman.com

Dutch populist leader Geert Wilders claims that "no" for the European
Constitution in the Netherlands indicates that the electors oppose the Turks
joining the Union.

Grabbing attention with his xenophobic remarks, the 42-year old former
rightist liberal Wilders issued a statement to Italian newspaper Corriere
della Sera today and said their struggle was to stop the Turks and that he
is extremely pleased with the Dutch rejection of the constitution.

--

E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane!    F.d.A

Coins, travels and more: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html

 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by Bob Peterso » Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:07:02



Quote:
> http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20050603&hn=20259

> Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks
> By Anadolu News Agency (aa)
> Published: Thursday 02, 2005
> zaman.com

> Dutch populist leader Geert Wilders claims that "no" for the European
> Constitution in the Netherlands indicates that the electors oppose the
> Turks
> joining the Union.

> Grabbing attention with his xenophobic remarks, the 42-year old former
> rightist liberal Wilders issued a statement to Italian newspaper Corriere
> della Sera today and said their struggle was to stop the Turks and that he
> is extremely pleased with the Dutch rejection of the constitution.

> --

> E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
> in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
> puttane!    F.d.A

> Coins, travels and more: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
> http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
> http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html


 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by Bob Peterso » Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:10:46


Personally, I am amazed that either the Dutch or the French people actually
voted this thing down. I have gained a new respect for the people of both
countries. I wonder if they are beginning to realize that government by
bureaucrats is not all its cracked up to be and after reading the thing
understood they would get a lot more of what has run the economy of most of
western Europe down the tubes the last 20 or 30 years.


Quote:
> http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20050603&hn=20259

> Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks
> By Anadolu News Agency (aa)
> Published: Thursday 02, 2005
> zaman.com

> Dutch populist leader Geert Wilders claims that "no" for the European
> Constitution in the Netherlands indicates that the electors oppose the
> Turks
> joining the Union.

> Grabbing attention with his xenophobic remarks, the 42-year old former
> rightist liberal Wilders issued a statement to Italian newspaper Corriere
> della Sera today and said their struggle was to stop the Turks and that he
> is extremely pleased with the Dutch rejection of the constitution.

> --

> E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
> in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
> puttane!    F.d.A

> Coins, travels and more: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
> http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
> http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html

 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by gogu » Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:12:39




Quote:



>> http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20050603&hn=20259

>> Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks
>> By Anadolu News Agency (aa)
>> Published: Thursday 02, 2005
>> zaman.com

>> Dutch populist leader Geert Wilders claims that "no" for the European
>> Constitution in the Netherlands indicates that the electors oppose the
>> Turks
>> joining the Union.

>> Grabbing attention with his xenophobic remarks, the 42-year old former
>> rightist liberal Wilders issued a statement to Italian newspaper Corriere
>> della Sera today and said their struggle was to stop the Turks and that
>> he
>> is extremely pleased with the Dutch rejection of the constitution.

Apologize for that Bob and for the following message, they were intended for
another ng.
Sorry.

--

E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane!    F.d.A

Coins, travels and more: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html

 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by Dik T. Winte » Sat, 04 Jun 2005 11:33:01


 > Dutch populist leader Geert Wilders claims that "no" for the European
 > Constitution in the Netherlands indicates that the electors oppose the Turks
 > joining the Union.

Ah, Wilders...  There has been research going on for the no vote.  Turkey
joining the Union was not in the top ten of reasons.  And, actually, it
is irrelevant.  I think, the main reason was that the treaty tried to do
too much at once.  A treaty that is presented as a constitution should have
rules about decision processes, rights of inhabitants, and so on.  It
should *not* rule that the economy is market-driven, for instance.  I
voted yes because of the improved decision processes, but I was bordering
on no because of other things.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by rafin » Sat, 04 Jun 2005 16:14:46


EU will never stop promising membership  to Turkiye regardless on they
have tendency to accept Turkiye  or not. They had many benefits in the
recent years by using this and they will not give up; like we don't
give up insisting...
 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by Bob Peterso » Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:42:30


Europe has the same problem we have in this respect.  Our internal
population growth is inadequate to maintain ourselves. We import Mexicans
(mostly), Europe imports mostly Moslems.


Quote:
> EU will never stop promising membership  to Turkiye regardless on they
> have tendency to accept Turkiye  or not. They had many benefits in the
> recent years by using this and they will not give up; like we don't
> give up insisting...

 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by Christian Feldha » Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:38:22



Quote:
> I think, the main reason was that the treaty tried to do too much at once.
> A treaty that is presented as a constitution should have rules about
> decision processes, rights of inhabitants, and so on.  It should *not*
> rule that the economy is market-driven, for instance.

Yes, the Constitution developed by the European Convention (with
representatives from all member states and "candidate" countries) and
agreed upon by the European Council is quite voluminous. Not exactly
surprising if you keep in mind that it was supposed to replace the
existing EC Treaty and EU Treaty as amended in Nice, which will now
remain effective ... but not efficient <g>.

So maybe we should have had a "lean" Constitution, with much of the rest
moved to other legal documents. What I still find a little strange is,
the part about the market driven economy has been in the Treaties from
the _very_beginning_. Somebody over at europa.union was nice enough to
copy the relevant parts in English, which saves me some time checking
for a translation of my German language version ...

From Article 3 of the original Treaty of Rome (dated 1957):
| (...) the activities of the Community shall include, as provided in
| this Treaty and in accordance with the timetable set out therein (...)
| a system ensuring that competition in the internal market is not
| distorted."

Pretty much the same text can be found in the Treaties as amended later,
particularly in Maastricht. And what do we find in Article I-3 of the
Constitutional Treaty?
| The Union shall offer its citizens an area of freedom, security and
| justice without internal frontiers, and an internal market where
| competition is free and undistorted.

Does not look like a fundamental difference to me, as far as
"competition" in the internal market is concerned. But I believe anyway
that even a legal framework split into a constitution and other treaties
would have been rejected in some referendums. And for reasons that do
not have much to do with the texts themselves.

Christian

 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by Christian Feldha » Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:52:56


Quote:

> I wonder if they are beginning to realize that government by
> bureaucrats is not all its cracked up to be and after reading the thing
> understood they would get a lot more of what has run the economy of most of
> western Europe down the tubes the last 20 or 30 years.

Heh. Do you seriously believe people - no matter whether they voted Yes
or No - actually read the Constitution? In some cases, the actual text
will have influenced the votes, in other cases it was a general attitude
towards the European Union. Others wanted to punish their own national
governments by bureaucrats and just used the EU as a convenient
scapegoat. Maybe the two referendums were a "healthy shock" which will
actually lead to productive results, but currently I doubt it ...

Christian

 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by Bob Peterso » Sun, 05 Jun 2005 07:48:55


one can always hope.


Quote:

>> I wonder if they are beginning to realize that government by
>> bureaucrats is not all its cracked up to be and after reading the thing
>> understood they would get a lot more of what has run the economy of most
>> of
>> western Europe down the tubes the last 20 or 30 years.

> Heh. Do you seriously believe people - no matter whether they voted Yes
> or No - actually read the Constitution? In some cases, the actual text
> will have influenced the votes, in other cases it was a general attitude
> towards the European Union. Others wanted to punish their own national
> governments by bureaucrats and just used the EU as a convenient
> scapegoat. Maybe the two referendums were a "healthy shock" which will
> actually lead to productive results, but currently I doubt it ...

> Christian

 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by oly » Sun, 05 Jun 2005 20:54:44


Didn't the United Nations or some other group with an interest in
demographics project that there will be 50 million fewer Europeans in
fifty years if present popluation birth/ death trends continue
unchanged?  Every one of those persons lost will have to be replaced by
persons from the third world, and then some.  Present western market
economies can't survive without endless growth in all things: any
period of stability or decrease would cause western economic collapse.
The U.S.A. is in the same boat as Europe in this regard.

I would also guess that the bureaucrats in Brussels will [ultimately]
simply ignore the French and Dutch votes and impose their "benign"
dictatorship unilaterally.  Regardless of the will of the plebes, the
Eurocratic elite will determine that "There is no turning back".  Those
nations that have adopted the Euro have already lost their sovereignty.

oly

 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by Christian Feldha » Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:22:23


Quote:

> I would also guess that the bureaucrats in Brussels will [ultimately]
> simply ignore the French and Dutch votes and impose their "benign"
> dictatorship unilaterally.

Well, who knows. Maybe they will one day be superfluous, and then we can
deal with the bureaucrats in Berlin, Paris, Warsaw, etc.  Now that will
make things soo much easier, especially once people discover how many EU
agreements would then be "replaced" by bilateral or multilateral deals.

Quote:
> Those nations that have adopted the Euro have already lost their
> sovereignty.

Not as much as an area that joins the US as a state, but of course every
country that joins the European Union gives up some of its sovereignty.
It doesn't take a European Constitution or a currency union to find that
out - reading the existing Treaties will do.

Christian

 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by Lee » Mon, 06 Jun 2005 01:33:52


Can't they just give some kind of incentives for the people to
reproduce?  Maybe cut off television and the internet at 8:00 PM so
that there is nothing else to do?


Quote:
>Didn't the United Nations or some other group with an interest in
>demographics project that there will be 50 million fewer Europeans in
>fifty years if present popluation birth/ death trends continue
>unchanged?  Every one of those persons lost will have to be replaced by
>persons from the third world, and then some.  Present western market
>economies can't survive without endless growth in all things: any
>period of stability or decrease would cause western economic collapse.
>The U.S.A. is in the same boat as Europe in this regard.

>I would also guess that the bureaucrats in Brussels will [ultimately]
>simply ignore the French and Dutch votes and impose their "benign"
>dictatorship unilaterally.  Regardless of the will of the plebes, the
>Eurocratic elite will determine that "There is no turning back".  Those
>nations that have adopted the Euro have already lost their sovereignty.

>oly

 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by oly » Mon, 06 Jun 2005 01:58:49


One suspects they're still "going through the motions" so to speak,
just making certain that nothing results.  History suggests that's what
wealthy people tend to do and modern contraceptives help (or hurt,
depending on your viewpoint) too.

oly

Quote:

> Can't they just give some kind of incentives for the people to
> reproduce?  Maybe cut off television and the internet at 8:00 PM so
> that there is nothing else to do?


> >Didn't the United Nations or some other group with an interest in
> >demographics project that there will be 50 million fewer Europeans in
> >fifty years if present popluation birth/ death trends continue
> >unchanged?  Every one of those persons lost will have to be replaced by
> >persons from the third world, and then some.  Present western market
> >economies can't survive without endless growth in all things: any
> >period of stability or decrease would cause western economic collapse.
> >The U.S.A. is in the same boat as Europe in this regard.

> >I would also guess that the bureaucrats in Brussels will [ultimately]
> >simply ignore the French and Dutch votes and impose their "benign"
> >dictatorship unilaterally.  Regardless of the will of the plebes, the
> >Eurocratic elite will determine that "There is no turning back".  Those
> >nations that have adopted the Euro have already lost their sovereignty.

> >oly

 
 
 

Dutch Wilder: We Struggle to Stop the Turks...

Post by Alexander Arnaki » Mon, 06 Jun 2005 13:25:12



Quote:
>One suspects they're still "going through the motions" so to speak,
>just making certain that nothing results.  History suggests that's what
>wealthy people tend to do and modern contraceptives help (or hurt,
>depending on your viewpoint) too.

It's not so much wealthy people that are restricting their
childbearing, but people *aspiring* to be wealthy (or even to have a
middle-class lifestyle).

Modern economics is to blame. It takes two incomes to have a
comfortable lifestyle these days. Ergo, women work, and in order to do
so, they extend their educations, marry later, and, when married, have
children later. Contraception and *** are just modalities to
accomplish these ends.

If you want to increase the birthrate, and reduce ***, enact
family-friendly policies that replace the income lost when women stay
at home to raise children.