Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by Rick Sno » Sat, 29 Jan 2000 04:00:00



The majority of the USS Centrtal America Horad was reportedly sold for over
$100 Million to Dwight Manly, John Albanese, Dave Bowers, David Hall and Ira
and Larry Goldberg.

See current Coin World for the scoop.

This is the biggest single numismatic transaction in history.

Rick Snow

 
 
 

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by David L. Hamilt » Sat, 29 Jan 2000 04:00:00


Rick:

There is an lengthy article in todays (1/28/00) issue of the Wall Street
Journal  Page B-1,  I was going to start a thread about it until I saw
your message.

Among other things it says that the group of investors will "begin
selling 3 tons of the glittering golden cache-thousands of coins and
ingotsrecovered from the abyss." "The first batch of 525 coins goes up
for sale Monday."

It also says that "the avalanche of gold is likel to swamp the rare coin
markets over the next two years"

Sounds like it will be a good time for me to buy <G>

------------------------------------  


says...

Quote:
> The majority of the USS Centrtal America Horad was reportedly sold for over
> $100 Million to Dwight Manly, John Albanese, Dave Bowers, David Hall and Ira
> and Larry Goldberg.

> See current Coin World for the scoop.

> This is the biggest single numismatic transaction in history.

> Rick Snow


 
 
 

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by CCT1 » Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:00:00


Hmmm.

This is bad news for collectors of the series
that are most heavily represented in that
hoard, because their holdings are certain to
decline over time.

Many of these guys were the same group that
distributed (or are distributing) the Wells
Fargo Hoard of MS-66 $20 St. Gaudens that
was found in Nevada.

They never revealed any facts about the true
size of the hoard, because they want to
introduce the coins into the hobby without
depressing prices for them.  They figure
that a lack of publicity will enable the hobby
to "absorb" 10X the previously-known number
of certain pops of high-end coins.  

I for one am skeptical that prices can be
supported in the long run when truly rare
coins are no longer truly rare.

Collectors are being kept in the dark so that
they will pay more than fair market value
for the coins, based on their ignorance about
the true scarcity of the coins they are buying.

This is no doubt perfectly legal.  But any
time a cartel of dealers manipulates the
market by withholding information, so that
they can get collectors to pay more than they
would if they were informed, it seems to me
that there's a problem.  I don't see how they
can do this without leaving a bunch of
collectors holding the bag in the long run.

 
 
 

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by Nospamdo » Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:00:00


   There now is a Web site devoted to the recently acquired treasure,
www.sscentralamerica.com.  

    $10 million worth of the treasure will be on display at the Long Beach Coin
& Collectibles Expo, February 10 - 13.  I'll post more on Monday (Jan. 31).

   -donn-
   Donn Pearlman

 
 
 

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by First M. Las » Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

>    There now is a Web site devoted to the recently acquired treasure,
> www.sscentralamerica.com.

>     $10 million worth of the treasure will be on display at the Long Beach Coin
> & Collectibles Expo, February 10 - 13.  I'll post more on Monday (Jan. 31).

>    -donn-
>    Donn Pearlman


 
 
 

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by TomDeLor » Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:00:00


So much for this being a "national treasure that should be kept intact." I hope
that the judge who issued the restraining order stopping the Sotheby's sale
cites the treasure finder for contempt of court.
TD
 
 
 

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by Clint Cummi » Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

>This is bad news for collectors of the series
>that are most heavily represented in that
>hoard, because their holdings are certain to
>decline over time.

     While I agree that the values of similar
coins goes down as supply goes up, I do not
agree that it is "bad news for collectors".

1. It is not really "new" news.  I believe the
market already reflects (to some extent) the
anticipated increase in supply for these coins.
The web page cited by Donn Pearlman announced
that 5000 of the 1857-S $20 coins would be sold
starting in March.  The discovery has been
known since about 1987, and we knew that coins
from that wreck cannot be dated later than 1857.
So there was an obvious risk to any collector
buying pre-1857 dates since 1987.  Even before
1987, the SS Central America was a well known
wreck and obvious high-tech salvage target,
so there was a tangible risk to holding coins
from that period.

2. Any price changes will affect anyone
holding those coins, which could be dealers
as well as collectors.  Price changes don't
necessarily have a "collector bias".

3. Price changes could go either way.  Prices
could rise if the supply increase is less than
what the market has guessed.

4. If the promotion of coins from this era
happens to bring many new collectors into the
market, there could be a demand for similar
coins from this era (i.e. dates not found
in the wreck).

5. Once the cataloging and sales are completed,
the uncertainty about this source of supply
will *finally* be gone.  So people who have
been staying out of this market due to the
obvious risk can re-enter.

In my opinion, Manley, et al are to be applauded
for their huge efforts in ending this legal mess.
I doubt that Manley et al initiated the
secrecy about the inventory of coins.  The
asset holders knew that secrecy had to be maintained
to maximize value to any potential buyers.

We know a full inventory of the recovered
coins will be published in Bowers' book.  So the
coins are in good hands, as far as making this
interesting information available.  Naturally
I would expect the higher volume dates will be
sold before the book is published.  But I bet
the coins will be sold at a fairly rapid pace;
$100 million in inventory makes it expensive
to delay!

Sincerely,

Clint Cummins

 
 
 

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by David Rya » Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:00:00


What you say is obviously true.  Wells Fargo has depressed the
prices for MS66+ 1908 NM G$20.  However, Brother Jonathan doubled
the number of available MS 1865-S G$20 without noticeable impact.
I would just wait and buy them when they come on the resale market.
One thing that may support the price for awhile is that the initial
owners will get them all at once and it may be many years before
they begin disposing of them in the normal recycling that occurs
with coins that are distributed between old and new collectors.

Quote:

> Hmmm.

> This is bad news for collectors of the series
> that are most heavily represented in that
> hoard, because their holdings are certain to
> decline over time.

> Many of these guys were the same group that
> distributed (or are distributing) the Wells
> Fargo Hoard of MS-66 $20 St. Gaudens that
> was found in Nevada.

> They never revealed any facts about the true
> size of the hoard, because they want to
> introduce the coins into the hobby without
> depressing prices for them.  They figure
> that a lack of publicity will enable the hobby
> to "absorb" 10X the previously-known number
> of certain pops of high-end coins.

> I for one am skeptical that prices can be
> supported in the long run when truly rare
> coins are no longer truly rare.

> Collectors are being kept in the dark so that
> they will pay more than fair market value
> for the coins, based on their ignorance about
> the true scarcity of the coins they are buying.

> This is no doubt perfectly legal.  But any
> time a cartel of dealers manipulates the
> market by withholding information, so that
> they can get collectors to pay more than they
> would if they were informed, it seems to me
> that there's a problem.  I don't see how they
> can do this without leaving a bunch of
> collectors holding the bag in the long run.

--
2000 is NOT the 21st century.  2001 is.  You can look it up at U.S.
Naval Observatory http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/faq/docs/millennium.html
 
 
 

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by David Rya » Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> So much for this being a "national treasure that should be kept
> intact." I hope that the judge who issued the restraining order
> stopping the Sotheby's sale cites the treasure finder for
> contempt of court.
> TD

I don't get that.  It's just a random hoard of stuff, with huge
numbers of duplicates.  Eliasberg was a national treasure, and
nobody saved that from the block.
--
2000 is NOT the 21st century.  2001 is.  You can look it up at U.S.
Naval Observatory http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/faq/docs/millennium.html
 
 
 

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by Richard Sno » Mon, 31 Jan 2000 04:00:00


Actually, The stuff that was to be sold by Sotheby's is the 8% that is NOT
part of this deal ... yet.

Rick


Quote:
>So much for this being a "national treasure that should be kept intact." I
hope
>that the judge who issued the restraining order stopping the Sotheby's sale
>cites the treasure finder for contempt of court.
>TD

 
 
 

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by Fred A. Murph » Sun, 06 Feb 2000 04:00:00



Quote:
> Collectors are being kept in the dark so that
> they will pay more than fair market value
> for the coins, based on their ignorance about
> the true scarcity of the coins they are buying.

> This is no doubt perfectly legal.  But any
> time a cartel of dealers manipulates the
> market by withholding information, so that
> they can get collectors to pay more than they
> would if they were informed, it seems to me
> that there's a problem.

That sword cuts in both directions.  The coins are in what the industry
calls "strong hands". These people are experts at liquidating hoards without
depressing the market.  If the sellers had run them through an auction or
similar, prices would have been depressed badly, both for the coins from the
hoard, and similar coins already in collector hands.  That's because there
would be a type of panic in the market, causing a drop much greater than a
10% increase in supply would justify.

Rememer that neither the Redfield hoard nor the CC dollars caused THAT
horrible a drop in the market, because in both cases the coins were let out
relatively slowly, and at prices as close to market value as possible.

 
 
 

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by David Rya » Sun, 06 Feb 2000 04:00:00


Quote:


> > Collectors are being kept in the dark so that
> > they will pay more than fair market value
> > for the coins, based on their ignorance about
> > the true scarcity of the coins they are buying.

> > This is no doubt perfectly legal.  But any
> > time a cartel of dealers manipulates the
> > market by withholding information, so that
> > they can get collectors to pay more than they
> > would if they were informed, it seems to me
> > that there's a problem.

> That sword cuts in both directions.  The coins are in what the industry
> calls "strong hands". These people are experts at liquidating hoards without
> depressing the market.  If the sellers had run them through an auction or
> similar, prices would have been depressed badly, both for the coins from the
> hoard, and similar coins already in collector hands.  That's because there
> would be a type of panic in the market, causing a drop much greater than a
> 10% increase in supply would justify.

> Rememer that neither the Redfield hoard nor the CC dollars caused THAT
> horrible a drop in the market, because in both cases the coins were let out
> relatively slowly, and at prices as close to market value as possible.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that 5200 certified (by PCGS)
uncirculated 1857-S double eagles represents more than 10%, not
only for that date, but for type one Liberty heads in mint state.
It is 20 times the size of the Brother Jonathan haul.  It is on
a scale with the Wells Fargo hoard which impacted high-grade
prices in a common date and series.

Don't get me wrong.  5200 coins will be easily devoured by the
market.  Prices today for mint state type one Liberties are
"depressed" by relative lack of interest due to unavailability.
This mass of material will generate nearly as much new interest as
it increases supply.  Still, expect prices to drift lower as a
result.

I am unfamiliar with what else is there.  But these seem like
hard numbers in this area.
--
2000 is NOT the 21st century.  2001 is.  You can look it up at U.S.
Naval Observatory http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/faq/docs/millennium.html

 
 
 

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by Teel Adam » Sun, 06 Feb 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> I am unfamiliar with what else is there.  But these seem like
> hard numbers in this area.

Of all things that I hope a horde finds some day,  is the 1857 Double Eagle
clashed with the 1857 flying eagle cent.  It has to be out there somewhere, in
some horde.
 
 
 

Main Hoard of USS Central America hoard sold!

Post by Clint Cummi » Sun, 06 Feb 2000 04:00:00



Quote:
>Of all things that I hope a horde finds some day,  is the
>1857 Double Eagle clashed with the 1857 flying eagle cent.
>It has to be out there somewhere, in some horde.

  http://www.coinworld.com/news/2000/020700/centralamerica020700.html
reports:
  Extensive examination revealed eight distinct die varieties among the
  recovered 1857-S $20 gold pieces.

Maybe it's one of the 8?

Have fun,

Clint Cummins