Market grading vs. Technical Grading.....the answer to my coin grading question

Market grading vs. Technical Grading.....the answer to my coin grading question

Post by Ira Stei » Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:42:56



Earlier today,  I illustrated my response to a discussion of market
grading vs. technical grading and an example of two 1879-CC $1 that
were thought to be VF-30 and VF-35 respectively were graded EF-45 and
AU-55 by PCGS. Much lamenting and gnashing of teeth followed, with
teras flowing copiously against teh evils of market grading.

About 11 or twelve of you kind Rcc'ers were asked for an opinion of
this PCGS graded 1797 Half Dollar:

http://members.aol.com/iras4/1797HfDolpcgs.jpg

Larry Louks answered Fine with possibly VF, but others suggested grades
ranging from VF-20 to POSSIBLY EF-40. One of you checked your ANA
grading guide for the answere and suggested a grade of VF-25.

Now, for the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey likes to say.

I also posed this question as to grade to about 46 local coin cub
members at one of our local meetings. Two though the coin was no better
than VG if that due to the denominator of the 1/2 on reverse being
"worn away" (sic) and the fact that the rim was incomplete on both
sides. Most of the others thought VF and a couple thought EF and 2
others, IIRC, thought it was a Fine.

This coin had been in an NGC VF-20 holder, graded recently (in last 8
mos. or so) and been submitted 3X to PCGS for a possible upgrade, or at
least a crossover at VF-20. No brainer, right?

Each of the 3X, PCGS came up with the same grade! Which was....(drum
roll)............................
.................................
.................................

Fine -15!

Larry Loucks was right on the money with his Fine & possibly VF-20
guess, and he does not have the experience of many of the long in tooth
old bastards like myself who have been around in this field for many
more years than Larry.

PCGS has market graded the coin, and I used this as an illustration of
market grading being a two way street. The coin is dark, and the market
likes coins either white, light gray, or nearly so, and will tolerate
only lovely rainbow toning near the rims if it's not pure white! Of
course, the blueish dark gray toning of the coin shows an untampered
piece, but that won't garner a higher point grade. In fact, in detail,
the coin is nearly a perfect match for teh VF illustrated in Al
Overton's epic book on Bust Halves, and that book was published over 20
years ago!

Here's more.

The dealer thought he stole the coin in its NGC holder for $50,000,
felt confident he could make a fast $10-$12K by getting it graded VF25
by PCGs and at least $4-$5K even if it crossed at VF-20.

I bought it from him for $45,000 and sold it for $47,800. Certainly
brought very strong money for a Fine, but the coin had the detail of a
higher graded piece.

Thought the whole deal was kinda interesting and thought I'd share it
with y'all.

Ira

 
 
 

Market grading vs. Technical Grading.....the answer to my coin grading question

Post by Larry Louk » Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:10:06


"Ira Stein" heaped copious praises and accolades on Larry with:

Quote:
> Larry Louks was right on the money with his Fine & possibly VF-20
> guess, and he does not have the experience of many of the long in tooth
> old bastards like myself who have been around in this field for many
> more years than Larry.

Heh heh! Heck, I think that's the first coin of that series that I've ever
graded, Ira. We might need to chalk that one up to "beginner's luck." In any
case, I'm pleased to hear that I was that close to what the slabbers saw in
the coin.

Quote:
> Thought the whole deal was kinda interesting and thought I'd share it
> with y'all.

Thanks for sharing! That is indeed quite a story!

Larry
'even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while'

 
 
 

Market grading vs. Technical Grading.....the answer to my coin grading question

Post by realit » Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:10:49


Quote:

> Earlier today,  I illustrated my response to a discussion of market
> grading vs. technical grading and an example of two 1879-CC $1 that
> were thought to be VF-30 and VF-35 respectively were graded EF-45 and
> AU-55 by PCGS. Much lamenting and gnashing of teeth followed, with
> teras flowing copiously against teh evils of market grading.

> About 11 or twelve of you kind Rcc'ers were asked for an opinion of
> this PCGS graded 1797 Half Dollar:

> http://members.aol.com/iras4/1797HfDolpcgs.jpg

> Larry Louks answered Fine with possibly VF, but others suggested grades
> ranging from VF-20 to POSSIBLY EF-40. One of you checked your ANA
> grading guide for the answere and suggested a grade of VF-25.

> Now, for the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey likes to say.

> I also posed this question as to grade to about 46 local coin cub
> members at one of our local meetings. Two though the coin was no better
> than VG if that due to the denominator of the 1/2 on reverse being
> "worn away" (sic) and the fact that the rim was incomplete on both
> sides. Most of the others thought VF and a couple thought EF and 2
> others, IIRC, thought it was a Fine.

> This coin had been in an NGC VF-20 holder, graded recently (in last 8
> mos. or so) and been submitted 3X to PCGS for a possible upgrade, or at
> least a crossover at VF-20. No brainer, right?

> Each of the 3X, PCGS came up with the same grade! Which was....(drum
> roll)............................
> .................................
> .................................

> Fine -15!

> Larry Loucks was right on the money with his Fine & possibly VF-20
> guess, and he does not have the experience of many of the long in tooth
> old bastards like myself who have been around in this field for many
> more years than Larry.

> PCGS has market graded the coin, and I used this as an illustration of
> market grading being a two way street. The coin is dark, and the market
> likes coins either white, light gray, or nearly so, and will tolerate
> only lovely rainbow toning near the rims if it's not pure white! Of
> course, the blueish dark gray toning of the coin shows an untampered
> piece, but that won't garner a higher point grade. In fact, in detail,
> the coin is nearly a perfect match for teh VF illustrated in Al
> Overton's epic book on Bust Halves, and that book was published over 20
> years ago!

> Here's more.

> The dealer thought he stole the coin in its NGC holder for $50,000,
> felt confident he could make a fast $10-$12K by getting it graded VF25
> by PCGs and at least $4-$5K even if it crossed at VF-20.

> I bought it from him for $45,000 and sold it for $47,800. Certainly
> brought very strong money for a Fine, but the coin had the detail of a
> higher graded piece.

> Thought the whole deal was kinda interesting and thought I'd share it
> with y'all.

> Ira

Very interesting grading challenge.  The reason I guessed VF-20 was
because of the strength of the obverse details on most of the hair and
the date, and because the obverse also has a pleasing patina to my eye.
 I gave it the benefit of the doubt on what looks like a slightly weak
strike on the reverse considering it's a 1797, and although it is dark,
that didn't really bother me because of the overall originality.
 
 
 

Market grading vs. Technical Grading.....the answer to my coin grading question

Post by James Higb » Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:42:02



Quote:
> Fine -15!
> PCGS has market graded the coin, and I used this as an illustration of
> market grading being a two way street. The coin is dark, and the market
> likes coins either white, light gray, or nearly so, and will tolerate
> only lovely rainbow toning near the rims if it's not pure white! Of
> course, the blueish dark gray toning of the coin shows an untampered
> piece, but that won't garner a higher point grade. In fact, in detail,
> the coin is nearly a perfect match for teh VF illustrated in Al
> Overton's epic book on Bust Halves, and that book was published over 20
> years ago!

I'm speechless.

No, that's a lie, I've got plenty to say.

Is this an April Fool?

Are we all on Candid Camera?

In my view that coin is massively more desirable than any white or light
gray coin.  It is just plain handsome.  My guess of PCGS VF35 was based on
that bias of mine.  I fully expected my guess to be blown away by the
revelation of an XF40 or 45 slab grade.

F-15!  I'd buy slabbed halves that looked like that all day at that level
(if I could afford to do so).

The guy who paid to get that coin slabbed got robbed - thrice.

If it's a perfect match for Al Overton's VF plate coin, what gives with the
F-15?

How many dealers do we know who would offer that coin at VF30 to XF40 if it
were raw?  100?  200?  500?  How many of those are respected members of the
Priesthood of Numismatics?

Why can't I ever find F-15 coins that look like that?

I want my Mommy.

Jimmy

 
 
 

Market grading vs. Technical Grading.....the answer to my coin grading question

Post by Alan William » Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:08:14


Quote:



> > Fine -15!

> > PCGS has market graded the coin, and I used this as an illustration of
> > market grading being a two way street. The coin is dark, and the market
> > likes coins either white, light gray, or nearly so, and will tolerate
> > only lovely rainbow toning near the rims if it's not pure white! Of
> > course, the blueish dark gray toning of the coin shows an untampered
> > piece, but that won't garner a higher point grade. In fact, in detail,
> > the coin is nearly a perfect match for teh VF illustrated in Al
> > Overton's epic book on Bust Halves, and that book was published over 20
> > years ago!

> I'm speechless.

> No, that's a lie, I've got plenty to say.

> Is this an April Fool?

> Are we all on Candid Camera?

> In my view that coin is massively more desirable than any white or light
> gray coin.  It is just plain handsome.  My guess of PCGS VF35 was based on
> that bias of mine.  I fully expected my guess to be blown away by the
> revelation of an XF40 or 45 slab grade.

> F-15!  I'd buy slabbed halves that looked like that all day at that level
> (if I could afford to do so).

> The guy who paid to get that coin slabbed got robbed - thrice.

> If it's a perfect match for Al Overton's VF plate coin, what gives with the
> F-15?

> How many dealers do we know who would offer that coin at VF30 to XF40 if it
> were raw?  100?  200?  500?  How many of those are respected members of the
> Priesthood of Numismatics?

> Why can't I ever find F-15 coins that look like that?

> I want my Mommy.

> Jimmy

I'm with you, man.  I'm a complete Know-Nothing about early Dollars, but
that obverse detail suggested far better than an F-15 to me.  

Alan
'the eye of the beholder betrayed by the holder'

 
 
 

Market grading vs. Technical Grading.....the answer to my coin grading question

Post by jeff » Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:45:04


Quote:

> Earlier today,  I illustrated my response to a discussion of market
> grading vs. technical grading and an example of two 1879-CC $1 that
> were thought to be VF-30 and VF-35 respectively were graded EF-45 and
> AU-55 by PCGS. Much lamenting and gnashing of teeth followed, with
> teras flowing copiously against teh evils of market grading.

> About 11 or twelve of you kind Rcc'ers were asked for an opinion of
> this PCGS graded 1797 Half Dollar:

> http://members.aol.com/iras4/1797HfDolpcgs.jpg

> Larry Louks answered Fine with possibly VF, but others suggested grades
> ranging from VF-20 to POSSIBLY EF-40. One of you checked your ANA
> grading guide for the answere and suggested a grade of VF-25.

> Now, for the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey likes to say.

> I also posed this question as to grade to about 46 local coin cub
> members at one of our local meetings. Two though the coin was no better
> than VG if that due to the denominator of the 1/2 on reverse being
> "worn away" (sic) and the fact that the rim was incomplete on both
> sides. Most of the others thought VF and a couple thought EF and 2
> others, IIRC, thought it was a Fine.

> This coin had been in an NGC VF-20 holder, graded recently (in last 8
> mos. or so) and been submitted 3X to PCGS for a possible upgrade, or at
> least a crossover at VF-20. No brainer, right?

> Each of the 3X, PCGS came up with the same grade! Which was....(drum
> roll)............................
> .................................
> .................................

> Fine -15!

> Larry Loucks was right on the money with his Fine & possibly VF-20
> guess, and he does not have the experience of many of the long in tooth
> old bastards like myself who have been around in this field for many
> more years than Larry.

> PCGS has market graded the coin, and I used this as an illustration of
> market grading being a two way street. The coin is dark, and the market
> likes coins either white, light gray, or nearly so, and will tolerate
> only lovely rainbow toning near the rims if it's not pure white! Of
> course, the blueish dark gray toning of the coin shows an untampered
> piece, but that won't garner a higher point grade. In fact, in detail,
> the coin is nearly a perfect match for teh VF illustrated in Al
> Overton's epic book on Bust Halves, and that book was published over 20
> years ago!

> Here's more.

> The dealer thought he stole the coin in its NGC holder for $50,000,
> felt confident he could make a fast $10-$12K by getting it graded VF25
> by PCGs and at least $4-$5K even if it crossed at VF-20.

> I bought it from him for $45,000 and sold it for $47,800. Certainly
> brought very strong money for a Fine, but the coin had the detail of a
> higher graded piece.

> Thought the whole deal was kinda interesting and thought I'd share it
> with y'all.

> Ira

I'm certainly no expert (and apparently, per my guess, I'm pretty
optimistic :), but from what I can see, F15 seems way too low.  You've
given me another reason to criticize market grading.  In my perfect
world, grading would be objective, and the market value of a coin would
be determined by looking at, and buying/selling, it.

BTW, Ira, this was a great exercise - very instructive.  Thanks!

Jeff

Jeff

 
 
 

Market grading vs. Technical Grading.....the answer to my coin grading question

Post by BoxTurt » Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:06:32


On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:08:14 -0400, Alan Williams

Quote:



>> > Fine -15!

>> > PCGS has market graded the coin, and I used this as an illustration of
>> > market grading being a two way street. The coin is dark, and the market
>> > likes coins either white, light gray, or nearly so, and will tolerate
>> > only lovely rainbow toning near the rims if it's not pure white! Of
>> > course, the blueish dark gray toning of the coin shows an untampered
>> > piece, but that won't garner a higher point grade. In fact, in detail,
>> > the coin is nearly a perfect match for teh VF illustrated in Al
>> > Overton's epic book on Bust Halves, and that book was published over 20
>> > years ago!

>> I'm speechless.

>> No, that's a lie, I've got plenty to say.

>> Is this an April Fool?

>> Are we all on Candid Camera?

>> In my view that coin is massively more desirable than any white or light
>> gray coin.  It is just plain handsome.  My guess of PCGS VF35 was based on
>> that bias of mine.  I fully expected my guess to be blown away by the
>> revelation of an XF40 or 45 slab grade.

>> F-15!  I'd buy slabbed halves that looked like that all day at that level
>> (if I could afford to do so).

>> The guy who paid to get that coin slabbed got robbed - thrice.

>> If it's a perfect match for Al Overton's VF plate coin, what gives with the
>> F-15?

>> How many dealers do we know who would offer that coin at VF30 to XF40 if it
>> were raw?  100?  200?  500?  How many of those are respected members of the
>> Priesthood of Numismatics?

>> Why can't I ever find F-15 coins that look like that?

>> I want my Mommy.

>> Jimmy

>I'm with you, man.  I'm a complete Know-Nothing about early Dollars, but
>that obverse detail suggested far better than an F-15 to me.  

>Alan
>'the eye of the beholder betrayed by the holder'

I called it VF35. I was only adding 5 points for a weak strike. I'll
buy F15's all day if they look like that.

Bruce

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Market grading vs. Technical Grading.....the answer to my coin grading question

Post by James Higb » Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:59:55



Quote:



>> > Fine -15!

>> > PCGS has market graded the coin, and I used this as an illustration of
>> > market grading being a two way street. The coin is dark, and the market
>> > likes coins either white, light gray, or nearly so, and will tolerate
>> > only lovely rainbow toning near the rims if it's not pure white! Of
>> > course, the blueish dark gray toning of the coin shows an untampered
>> > piece, but that won't garner a higher point grade. In fact, in detail,
>> > the coin is nearly a perfect match for teh VF illustrated in Al
>> > Overton's epic book on Bust Halves, and that book was published over 20
>> > years ago!

>> I'm speechless.

>> No, that's a lie, I've got plenty to say.

>> Is this an April Fool?

>> Are we all on Candid Camera?

>> In my view that coin is massively more desirable than any white or light
>> gray coin.  It is just plain handsome.  My guess of PCGS VF35 was based
>> on
>> that bias of mine.  I fully expected my guess to be blown away by the
>> revelation of an XF40 or 45 slab grade.

>> F-15!  I'd buy slabbed halves that looked like that all day at that level
>> (if I could afford to do so).

>> The guy who paid to get that coin slabbed got robbed - thrice.

>> If it's a perfect match for Al Overton's VF plate coin, what gives with
>> the
>> F-15?

>> How many dealers do we know who would offer that coin at VF30 to XF40 if
>> it
>> were raw?  100?  200?  500?  How many of those are respected members of
>> the
>> Priesthood of Numismatics?

>> Why can't I ever find F-15 coins that look like that?

>> I want my Mommy.

>> Jimmy

> I'm with you, man.  I'm a complete Know-Nothing about early Dollars, but
> that obverse detail suggested far better than an F-15 to me.

> Alan
> 'the eye of the beholder betrayed by the holder'

For the record, it's a half dollar.

But I have seen countless draped bust/small eagle dollars in PCGS VF35 and
better holders that possessed detail exactly like that on the obverse.  I
know that in a sense it's apples and oranges, but in another it really
isn't, especially if you look at the pictures and descriptions in the
grading guides.

James
'that was an excellent tag line, Alan'

 
 
 

Market grading vs. Technical Grading.....the answer to my coin grading question

Post by Mark Coope » Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:44:22



Quote:
> Earlier today,  I illustrated my response to a discussion of market
> grading vs. technical grading and an example of two 1879-CC $1 that
> were thought to be VF-30 and VF-35 respectively were graded EF-45 and
> AU-55 by PCGS. Much lamenting and gnashing of teeth followed, with
> teras flowing copiously against teh evils of market grading.

> About 11 or twelve of you kind Rcc'ers were asked for an opinion of
> this PCGS graded 1797 Half Dollar:

> http://members.aol.com/iras4/1797HfDolpcgs.jpg

> Larry Louks answered Fine with possibly VF, but others suggested grades
> ranging from VF-20 to POSSIBLY EF-40. One of you checked your ANA
> grading guide for the answere and suggested a grade of VF-25.

> Now, for the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey likes to say.

> I also posed this question as to grade to about 46 local coin cub
> members at one of our local meetings. Two though the coin was no better
> than VG if that due to the denominator of the 1/2 on reverse being
> "worn away" (sic) and the fact that the rim was incomplete on both
> sides. Most of the others thought VF and a couple thought EF and 2
> others, IIRC, thought it was a Fine.

> This coin had been in an NGC VF-20 holder, graded recently (in last 8
> mos. or so) and been submitted 3X to PCGS for a possible upgrade, or at
> least a crossover at VF-20. No brainer, right?

> Each of the 3X, PCGS came up with the same grade! Which was....(drum
> roll)............................
> .................................
> .................................

> Fine -15!

> Larry Loucks was right on the money with his Fine & possibly VF-20
> guess, and he does not have the experience of many of the long in tooth
> old bastards like myself who have been around in this field for many
> more years than Larry.

> PCGS has market graded the coin, and I used this as an illustration of
> market grading being a two way street. The coin is dark, and the market
> likes coins either white, light gray, or nearly so, and will tolerate
> only lovely rainbow toning near the rims if it's not pure white! Of
> course, the blueish dark gray toning of the coin shows an untampered
> piece, but that won't garner a higher point grade. In fact, in detail,
> the coin is nearly a perfect match for teh VF illustrated in Al
> Overton's epic book on Bust Halves, and that book was published over 20
> years ago!

> Here's more.

> The dealer thought he stole the coin in its NGC holder for $50,000,
> felt confident he could make a fast $10-$12K by getting it graded VF25
> by PCGs and at least $4-$5K even if it crossed at VF-20.

> I bought it from him for $45,000 and sold it for $47,800. Certainly
> brought very strong money for a Fine, but the coin had the detail of a
> higher graded piece.

> Thought the whole deal was kinda interesting and thought I'd share it
> with y'all.

> Ira

Very interesting exercise.

And how refreshing, a coin related thread!

Mark

 
 
 

Market grading vs. Technical Grading.....the answer to my coin grading question

Post by Gary Loveles » Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:24:59


Quote:

>Fine -15!

>Larry Loucks was right on the money with his Fine & possibly VF-20
>guess, and he does not have the experience of many of the long in tooth
>old bastards like myself who have been around in this field for many
>more years than Larry.

Ira -

Thanks for the story! It was quite nice!

Gary

 
 
 

Market grading vs. Technical Grading.....the answer to my coin grading question

Post by Tony Clayto » Thu, 28 Jul 2005 04:38:55



Quote:
> [snip]

> PCGS has market graded the coin, and I used this as an illustration of
> market grading being a two way street. The coin is dark, and the market
> likes coins either white, light gray, or nearly so, and will tolerate
> only lovely rainbow toning near the rims if it's not pure white! Of
> course, the blueish dark gray toning of the coin shows an untampered
> piece, but that won't garner a higher point grade. In fact, in detail,
> the coin is nearly a perfect match for teh VF illustrated in Al
> Overton's epic book on Bust Halves, and that book was published over 20
> years ago!

> Here's more.

> The dealer thought he stole the coin in its NGC holder for $50,000,
> felt confident he could make a fast $10-$12K by getting it graded VF25
> by PCGs and at least $4-$5K even if it crossed at VF-20.

> I bought it from him for $45,000 and sold it for $47,800. Certainly
> brought very strong money for a Fine, but the coin had the detail of a
> higher graded piece.

> Thought the whole deal was kinda interesting and thought I'd share it
> with y'all.

As a UK collector I would have given it as Fine without
looking up any grading guide.

Just as an interesting aside!

--

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