Conical: Dumping Trub Often?

Conical: Dumping Trub Often?

Post by David Wuertel » Thu, 08 Jun 2006 01:19:03



I've heard conical fermenter owners recommend dumping trub three
times:

1.  soon after pitching, to remove particles that escaped from the
    boil kettle

2.  once at end of "primary" to get rid of dead yeast

3.  once right before bottling, to minimize junk that makes it into
    the bottle

What if I were to dump a little trub EVERY DAY?  Yes, it would be a
potential waste of beer.  But it could also improve the beer, couldn't
it?  Instead of trying to judge when primary is done, if you just dump
a little trub every day you will get rid of the same dead yeasties
soon after they fall to the bottom.  Wouldn't that be much better for
the beer than letting them sit out the rest of primary?

Dave

P.S. Is it obvious that I have a batch in primary and I'm searching
for something to DO?

 
 
 

Conical: Dumping Trub Often?

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesa » Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:40:11


Quote:

> What if I were to dump a little trub EVERY DAY?  Yes, it would be a
> potential waste of beer.  But it could also improve the beer, couldn't
> it?

In what way would it improve the beer?

Quote:
> Instead of trying to judge when primary is done, if you just dump
> a little trub every day you will get rid of the same dead yeasties
> soon after they fall to the bottom.  Wouldn't that be much better for
> the beer than letting them sit out the rest of primary?

Letting the beer sit on the yeast does not hurt anything (unless you start
talking about long term storage).  I don't see any benefit to dumping
more often.  Actually the opposite, removing most of the yeast from the
beer too early can cause problems.

John.

 
 
 

Conical: Dumping Trub Often?

Post by David Wuertel » Thu, 08 Jun 2006 20:35:12


Me> What if I were to dump a little trub EVERY DAY?  Yes, it would be
Me> a potential waste of beer.  But it could also improve the beer,
Me> couldn't it?

John> In what way would it improve the beer?

Isn't the goal of racking to a secondary (and dumping trub with a
conical) to get the beer off the dead yeast and other junk that has
precipitated out?

John> Letting the beer sit on the yeast does not hurt anything (unless
John> you start talking about long term storage).

Then why rack to a secondary at all?

John> Actually the opposite, removing most of the yeast from the beer
John> too early can cause problems.

I should have mentioned that I'm talking about ale here (I'm just
getting started and haven't made it to lagers yet).  I thought that
the active ale yeast would all be suspended in the beer.  Wouldn't
dumping a little trub just remove the dead or inactive ones?

Dave

 
 
 

Conical: Dumping Trub Often?

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesa » Fri, 09 Jun 2006 03:58:48


Quote:

> Me> What if I were to dump a little trub EVERY DAY?  Yes, it would be
> Me> a potential waste of beer.  But it could also improve the beer,
> Me> couldn't it?

> John> In what way would it improve the beer?

> Isn't the goal of racking to a secondary (and dumping trub with a
> conical) to get the beer off the dead yeast and other junk that has
> precipitated out?

Not really.  The old fear of getting your beer off of the primary yeast
as soon as possible is mostly overblown.  You're not really going to have
any problems unless you leave it sit in the primary for months.  Some older
homebrewing books warned that you absolutely had to get the beer off
after a week, but IMO it's a myth.

Quote:
> John> Letting the beer sit on the yeast does not hurt anything (unless
> John> you start talking about long term storage).

> Then why rack to a secondary at all?

Many people don't rack to a secondary.  I like to do it, but mostly because
I find that the beer clears better when I rack to a secondary rather than
leave it in the primary.  You don't need to rack to a secondary in order to
avoid off flavors from the yeast.  IMO, that's just not true.

Quote:
> John> Actually the opposite, removing most of the yeast from the beer
> John> too early can cause problems.

> I should have mentioned that I'm talking about ale here (I'm just
> getting started and haven't made it to lagers yet).  I thought that
> the active ale yeast would all be suspended in the beer.  Wouldn't
> dumping a little trub just remove the dead or inactive ones?

No, the yeast that settles out as fermentation slows down is not all dead
cells.  Yeast will naturally flocculate down to the bottom of the fermenter
as activity slows.  However, there is still work going on that the yeast
are doing.  Things like cleaning up after themselves and removing some
by products that were created during the original fermentation.  The stuff
that occurs during lagering also occurs to some extent with ales.  One of
the classic side effects of removing the yeast too early in any beer (lager
or ale) is green apple (acetaldehyde) flavors.

I don't know for sure that dumping the yeast every day will cause
acetaldehyde problems, however it's a possibility.  On the other hand
I don't believe there is any benefit from dumping every day.  IMO,
possible bad things with no good benefit in my book means I wouldn't
do it.

John.

 
 
 

Conical: Dumping Trub Often?

Post by David Wuertel » Thu, 08 Jun 2006 22:59:00


John> Many people don't rack to a secondary.  I like to do it, but
John> mostly because I find that the beer clears better when I rack to
John> a secondary rather than leave it in the primary.  You don't need
John> to rack to a secondary in order to avoid off flavors from the
John> yeast.  IMO, that's just not true.

Interesting.  So when you rack an ale to secondary, when do you do it?
What I mean is, how do you decide that it is time to rack to
secondary?

Dave

 
 
 

Conical: Dumping Trub Often?

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesa » Fri, 09 Jun 2006 06:18:29


Quote:

> John> Many people don't rack to a secondary.  I like to do it, but
> John> mostly because I find that the beer clears better when I rack to
> John> a secondary rather than leave it in the primary.  You don't need
> John> to rack to a secondary in order to avoid off flavors from the
> John> yeast.  IMO, that's just not true.

> Interesting.  So when you rack an ale to secondary, when do you do it?
> What I mean is, how do you decide that it is time to rack to
> secondary?

I like to rack to secondary after the krausen falls in the primary, although
there is no "rule" for when you have to rack.  Generally speaking, most of my
beers spend 1 week in the primary and then 2 weeks in the secondary.

John.

 
 
 

Conical: Dumping Trub Often?

Post by Scott Seller » Fri, 09 Jun 2006 06:57:42



[...]

Quote:
>> I should have mentioned that I'm talking about ale here (I'm
>> just getting started and haven't made it to lagers yet).  I
>> thought that the active ale yeast would all be suspended in
>> the beer.  Wouldn't dumping a little trub just remove the dead
>> or inactive ones?
>No, the yeast that settles out as fermentation slows down is not
>all dead cells.  Yeast will naturally flocculate down to the
>bottom of the fermenter as activity slows.  However, there is
>still work going on that the yeast are doing.  Things like
>cleaning up after themselves and removing some by products that
>were created during the original fermentation.  The stuff that
>occurs during lagering also occurs to some extent with ales.
>One of the classic side effects of removing the yeast too early
>in any beer (lager or ale) is green apple (acetaldehyde)
>flavors.

Yeah.  In my experience, when I ferment in a carboy, I see all
kinds of activity in the yeast cake during the active part of the
ferment -- stuff bubbling up, little volcanos erupting, chunks
getting launched into the stratosphere, etc.  It's like a yeast
party down there.

I can see (maybe) a benefit to dumping the early trub fallout.
Maybe not.  But I think you'd probably want to keep the active
yeast around until it's no longer needed.

Scott S

--
Scott Sellers                |

 
 
 

Conical: Dumping Trub Often?

Post by Sam G. Dahe » Sat, 10 Jun 2006 04:20:33


I too have a conical. My method is i dump three days after pitching to get
all the settled junk out. Then again after primary is over usually 7 day
mark, I then dissolve a packet of unflavored geletin in 8oz of water brought
to a boil to sanitze and pour over the beer. The geletin is really good at
grabbing suspended particles of yeast and other junk and packing at the
bottom of fermenter. then i dump about two to three more times till second
week is up then rack to kegs. as long as i am getting a yeast turd coming
out i do dumps. When i only get watery splash i stop dumping. It is from
this splash that i harvest yeast for the next brew beause it is free of junk
for the most part.


Quote:
> I've heard conical fermenter owners recommend dumping trub three
> times:

> 1.  soon after pitching, to remove particles that escaped from the
>    boil kettle

> 2.  once at end of "primary" to get rid of dead yeast

> 3.  once right before bottling, to minimize junk that makes it into
>    the bottle

> What if I were to dump a little trub EVERY DAY?  Yes, it would be a
> potential waste of beer.  But it could also improve the beer, couldn't
> it?  Instead of trying to judge when primary is done, if you just dump
> a little trub every day you will get rid of the same dead yeasties
> soon after they fall to the bottom.  Wouldn't that be much better for
> the beer than letting them sit out the rest of primary?

> Dave

> P.S. Is it obvious that I have a batch in primary and I'm searching
> for something to DO?

 
 
 

Conical: Dumping Trub Often?

Post by Sam G. Dahe » Sat, 10 Jun 2006 04:24:04


Actually you should go by your hydrometer. If "primary" fermentation is done
then rack. Let final fermentation and clarification to be done in secondary.
Too much yeast especially after recycling can dry your beer out so yes get
it off the trub bed when done fermenting.



Quote:

>> John> Many people don't rack to a secondary.  I like to do it, but
>> John> mostly because I find that the beer clears better when I rack to
>> John> a secondary rather than leave it in the primary.  You don't need
>> John> to rack to a secondary in order to avoid off flavors from the
>> John> yeast.  IMO, that's just not true.

>> Interesting.  So when you rack an ale to secondary, when do you do it?
>> What I mean is, how do you decide that it is time to rack to
>> secondary?

> I like to rack to secondary after the krausen falls in the primary,
> although
> there is no "rule" for when you have to rack.  Generally speaking, most of
> my
> beers spend 1 week in the primary and then 2 weeks in the secondary.

> John.

 
 
 

Conical: Dumping Trub Often?

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesa » Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:16:54


Quote:

> Actually you should go by your hydrometer.

I disagree.  There is no specific time for racking.  The window is big
enough that you don't really need to bother with hydrometer readings.

Quote:
> Too much yeast especially after recycling can dry your beer out so yes get
> it off the trub bed when done fermenting.

How does too much yeast dry out the beer?

John.

 
 
 

Conical: Dumping Trub Often?

Post by Sam G. Dahe » Sat, 10 Jun 2006 21:45:08


Let me re phrase that:
I recycle my yeast, that is the main reason for going with a conical using
the method i described. I use Mike Dixons yeast washing technique that he
posted quite a number of times. I use 6oz mason jars to keep my yeast in.
they hold a heck of a lot more yeast then a  vial of white labs. When yeast
is active it is hungry and hungry yeast eat sugar and shit *** and not
to mention fart CO2. Now, beer yeast has a certain *** tolerance of
course but i have had the experience of recycling yeast into batches and
them taking off like crazy and bringing my gravity down to 1.004 that is
pretty dry. I will make the same batch using half or less of the yeast and
not have the problem.
I posed this situation to a friend who is a Biology professor, he explained
to me that yeast being a living organism like any other living organism will
fight to survive. And by introducing larger amounts then necessary into a
limited food source creates a survival of the fitest situation. Now could
this just be coincidenta? Perhaps, however i now limit the amount of yeast i
use to about half and have not dried out a beer in 2 years.



Quote:

>> Actually you should go by your hydrometer.

> I disagree.  There is no specific time for racking.  The window is big
> enough that you don't really need to bother with hydrometer readings.

>> Too much yeast especially after recycling can dry your beer out so yes
>> get
>> it off the trub bed when done fermenting.

> How does too much yeast dry out the beer?

> John.

 
 
 

Conical: Dumping Trub Often?

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesa » Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:41:24


Quote:

> Let me re phrase that:
> I recycle my yeast, that is the main reason for going with a conical using
> the method i described. I use Mike Dixons yeast washing technique that he
> posted quite a number of times. I use 6oz mason jars to keep my yeast in.
> they hold a heck of a lot more yeast then a  vial of white labs. When yeast
> is active it is hungry and hungry yeast eat sugar and shit *** and not
> to mention fart CO2. Now, beer yeast has a certain *** tolerance of
> course but i have had the experience of recycling yeast into batches and
> them taking off like crazy and bringing my gravity down to 1.004 that is
> pretty dry. I will make the same batch using half or less of the yeast and
> not have the problem.

The amount of yeast you pitch should have nothing to do with the beer
fermenting out too much.  If you're getting FGs around 1.004 then something
else is going on.  IMO, it sounds like you've got bacteria other than yeast
in there or else there was something about the recipe which caused a really
high attenuation.

As long as you pitch enough yeast, pitching too much will not increase the
attenuation.

Quote:
> I posed this situation to a friend who is a Biology professor, he explained
> to me that yeast being a living organism like any other living organism will
> fight to survive. And by introducing larger amounts then necessary into a
> limited food source creates a survival of the fitest situation.

OK, but what does that have to do with your FG being too low?

John.