Copper Sparge Manifold Problems

Copper Sparge Manifold Problems

Post by Jeff Jon » Sat, 09 Jul 1994 04:25:30



I've recently begun building a Gott Cooler mashing system.  My plan is
to replace the spigot with a tank adapter (of the apropriate material,
thanks Cole-Parmer), build a slotted copper manifold for the drain, and
use an external ball valve for flow control.

The problem I've run into involves soldering the copper.  I used SN96
(lead free) and solder flux of the appropriate type for that solder.
When I finished soldering there seems to be a significant amount of
flux residue on the pipe.  From this, I conclude that there's a similar
quantity inside the pipe also.  I don't want this stuff in my mash system.
The can-o-flux says it contains some stuff that you wouldn't want to eat.
I don't have the names of the chemicals, but I'll get them if someone wants
to know.  The can does say "Do NOT eat".  That's good enough for me.

How do I get the Flux residue off the pipes?

I did a trial run to see if it's a problem:

    I made a test piece soldered with the flux.
    I boiled it in an acidified water solution for 15 minutes (lactic acid,
    Ph=~5.0) to simulate a wort boil.  When finished the solder and
    the clean copper looked clean and shiney, but the flux residue
    area looked black.

    I repeated the test, but cleaned the fluxed area
    with a solvent (carburator cleaner...I know that's not good stuff either)
    followed by an *** rinse and a good cleaning with soap and water.
    This resulted in less black stuff, but still enough to concern me.

Am I seeing an oxidation of the residue?  Is there some caustic I can clean
these parts with to remove the flux?  Or should I trash this Idea and use
non-soldered parts in my system (I'd prefer to solder few of them, at least).

Any and all help will be appreciated.  


Thanks in advance

 
 
 

Copper Sparge Manifold Problems

Post by John J. Palme » Sat, 09 Jul 1994 05:14:31



Quote:

> I've recently begun building a Gott Cooler mashing system.  My plan is
> to replace the spigot with a tank adapter (of the apropriate material,
> thanks Cole-Parmer), build a slotted copper manifold for the drain, and
> use an external ball valve for flow control.

> The problem I've run into involves soldering the copper.  I used SN96
> (lead free) and solder flux of the appropriate type for that solder.
> When I finished soldering there seems to be a significant amount of
> flux residue on the pipe.  From this, I conclude that there's a similar
> quantity inside the pipe also.  I don't want this stuff in my mash system.
> The can-o-flux says it contains some stuff that you wouldn't want to eat.
> I don't have the names of the chemicals, but I'll get them if someone wants
> to know.  The can does say "Do NOT eat".  That's good enough for me.

> How do I get the Flux residue off the pipes?

Ugh. Well, cleaning it by the simulated wort boil was a good idea, but I
would have just dunked it in White Distilled Vinegar from the Grocery
Store. Try Oven Cleaner to clean off the flux left over then redunk it in
the Acetic Acid (vinegar) and hot water rinse.

BUT, what did I do for my system? I used solderless compression fittings
like they use for water lines. They work just dandy and you can take them
apart to clean.


Metallurgist for International Space Station Alpha

Quote:
>My file, How to Brew Your First Beer, containing info on equipment,

terms, brewing processes and troubleshooting, is available via FTP from
Homebrew/Docs at sierra.stanford.edu or via WWW on Spencer's Beer Page at
http://guraldi.itn.med.umich.edu/Beer/

 
 
 

Copper Sparge Manifold Problems

Post by Jeff Jon » Sat, 09 Jul 1994 06:23:57


Hey, sounds like a good idea, John.
I'll give it a try and see how it goes.  I'll let you know
what happens.

BTW, aren't compression fittings both bulky and expensive,
at least compared to pipe or sweat fittings?  I was going
to go that route, but changed my mind when I saw the price.
But I must say, a couple of bucks more beats a weeks headache
trying to make it work.

thanks

 
 
 

Copper Sparge Manifold Problems

Post by John J. Palme » Sat, 09 Jul 1994 06:50:13



Quote:

> Hey, sounds like a good idea, John.
> I'll give it a try and see how it goes.  I'll let you know
> what happens.

> BTW, aren't compression fittings both bulky and expensive,
> at least compared to pipe or sweat fittings?  I was going
> to go that route, but changed my mind when I saw the price.
> But I must say, a couple of bucks more beats a weeks headache
> trying to make it work.

> thanks

Not the ones I use. I get them from Home Depot, small brass fittings in
red and white bubble packaging. About 1-3 bucks depending on size and
complexity. The fittings are sold near the coils of soft copper tubing.
--

Metallurgist for International Space Station Alpha

Quote:
>My file, How to Brew Your First Beer, containing info on equipment,

terms, brewing processes and troubleshooting, is available via FTP
from Homebrew/Docs at sierra.stanford.edu or via WWW on Spencer's
Beer Page at http://guraldi.itn.med.umich.edu/Beer/
 
 
 

Copper Sparge Manifold Problems

Post by Edward A. Morgan x25 » Sat, 09 Jul 1994 21:08:12



Quote:


>> Hey, sounds like a good idea, John.
>> I'll give it a try and see how it goes.  I'll let you know
>> what happens.

>> BTW, aren't compression fittings both bulky and expensive,
>> at least compared to pipe or sweat fittings?  I was going
>> to go that route, but changed my mind when I saw the price.
>> But I must say, a couple of bucks more beats a weeks headache
>> trying to make it work.

>> thanks

>Not the ones I use. I get them from Home Depot, small brass fittings in
>red and white bubble packaging. About 1-3 bucks depending on size and
>complexity. The fittings are sold near the coils of soft copper tubing.
>--

>Metallurgist for International Space Station Alpha

>>My file, How to Brew Your First Beer, containing info on equipment,
>terms, brewing processes and troubleshooting, is available via FTP
>from Homebrew/Docs at sierra.stanford.edu or via WWW on Spencer's
>Beer Page at http://guraldi.itn.med.umich.edu/Beer/

        Jeff - I converted my Gott cooler about the 4 months ago.
Like you I built a copper manifold, however I _did not_ solder
the joints together.  I simply pressed them together for a tight
fit.  I build a square shaped manifold a little smaller than the
size of the cooler, so there isn't enough room for it to work
apart while I'm mashing.  Also, if the joints leak, so what?  It
will act as a filter just like the slots you cut in the copper pipe.
        I've used this system 6 times already and it works great.
Easy to take apart to clean.  I've even taken it apart to modify
it once.  Just another $0.02

Quote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

^  Edward A. Morgan                        "It's Guinness' porter that has    ^
^  Alchemist, beer lover                       me this way!"                  ^
^  and professional idiot.                        - Drink it up Men - TIDS    ^
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<*>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 
 
 

Copper Sparge Manifold Problems

Post by Who Da » Thu, 14 Jul 1994 01:03:45



Quote:



>>> Hey, sounds like a good idea, John.
>>> I'll give it a try and see how it goes.  I'll let you know
>>> what happens.

>>> BTW, aren't compression fittings both bulky and expensive,
>>> at least compared to pipe or sweat fittings?  I was going
>>> to go that route, but changed my mind when I saw the price.
>>> But I must say, a couple of bucks more beats a weeks headache
>>> trying to make it work.

>>> thanks

Hmmm... I just built a copper manifold with a solid piece of copper tubing,
and have found no need for  compression fittings except for attaching to
the ball valve.  The tubing run directly from the spigot across the center of
the mash tun, and then bends in a circle around the wall of the tun.  It passes
under the spigot and along the bottom until 360 Degrees, and then it turn
upward.  I have used it twice, however I have only achieved a 25.5 pt extraction
rate.  Once in a 5 gallon version for a partial mash, and once in a 10 gallon
version for my first all grain mash.  Does anyone see a problem with this design,
and could it partially be responsible for my extraction rate??  I guess only time
will tell.  The important this to consider when building a manifold in this
manner is to bend and fit the manifold first, and then slot it afterwards.
--
Kevin M. Hardee                      GEAUX SAINTS, GEAUX CAJUNS...

Richardson, TX                       PHONE:  (214) 996-6112
 
 
 

Copper Sparge Manifold Problems

Post by John J. Palme » Thu, 14 Jul 1994 07:33:32


Quote:


Morgan x2509) writes:
> >munch

> Hmmm... I just built a copper manifold with a solid piece of copper tubing,
> and have found no need for  compression fittings except for attaching to
> the ball valve.  The tubing run directly from the spigot across the center of
> the mash tun, and then bends in a circle around the wall of the tun.  It
passes
> under the spigot and along the bottom until 360 Degrees, and then it turn
> upward.  I have used it twice, however I have only achieved a 25.5 pt
extraction
> rate.  Once in a 5 gallon version for a partial mash, and once in a 10 gallon
> version for my first all grain mash.  Does anyone see a problem with
this design,
> and could it partially be responsible for my extraction rate??  I guess
only time
> will tell.  The important this to consider when building a manifold in this
> manner is to bend and fit the manifold first, and then slot it afterwards.
> --
> Kevin M. Hardee                      GEAUX SAINTS, GEAUX CAJUNS...

> Richardson, TX                       PHONE:  (214) 996-6112

Your design seems fine Kevin, if I understand it correctly. It is a single
tube coiled to go around the cooler bottom, one end crimped and the other
exiting out the spigot.

What I did was used a T fitting to connect the loop to the exit spigot.
Something like this. Top view.
   _    _
  / \  / \
  |  | |  |
  |  | |  |
  |  \_/  |
  \___=___/
      T
--

Metallurgist for International Space Station Alpha

Quote:
>My file, How to Brew Your First Beer, containing info on equipment,

terms, brewing processes and troubleshooting, is available via FTP
from Homebrew/Docs at sierra.stanford.edu or via WWW on Spencer's
Beer Page at http://guraldi.itn.med.umich.edu/Beer/
 
 
 

Copper Sparge Manifold Problems

Post by Bruce E. Conn » Thu, 14 Jul 1994 14:07:57


Just my $.02 here.  I built my Gott cooler a syphon style EZmasher
thingamabob.  It works great!  AND it was EZ to make, requires NO
fiddling with the cooler (makes the cooler easier to clean too).

Essentially the unit is a length of 1/4 inch copper tubing which is about
2 times the height of the cooler.  put a 90 degree bend about 2 inches
from one end.  Attach the rolled screen, ala the EZ Masher to this end.  I
have mine just wired on, seems to hold OK.  Then place this in your
cooler with the screen on the bottom as you want it.  Now bend the tubing
over the top of the cooler (careful, use a tubing bender if you can) and
run the tube down the outside of the cooler body.  Attach a hose and a
clamp valve to the end of this and you are all set.

TO USE:  Do your mash WITHOUT the syphon gizmo in place.  This allows you
to close the lid on the cooler, stir, and do all those other fun things
unencubered.  When you are ready to sparge, give the mash a real good
stir or two, then wiggle the syphon unit down through it.  It DOES reach
the bottom BTW.  Oh yes. be sure to have filled the syphon with tap water
before putting it in so the sypon will auto-start.  Thats it!  Removable,
easy to clean and cheap.  What more could you want?  OK, *besides*  a
RIMS unit?

Hope this works as well for you as it does for me.

Bruce Conner

 
 
 

Copper Sparge Manifold Problems

Post by Edward A. Morgan x25 » Sun, 17 Jul 1994 01:19:09



Quote:

>> version for my first all grain mash.  Does anyone see a problem with
>this design,
>> and could it partially be responsible for my extraction rate??  I guess
>only time
>> will tell.  The important this to consider when building a manifold in this
>> manner is to bend and fit the manifold first, and then slot it afterwards.

>Your design seems fine Kevin, if I understand it correctly. It is a single
>tube coiled to go around the cooler bottom, one end crimped and the other
>exiting out the spigot.

>What I did was used a T fitting to connect the loop to the exit spigot.
>Something like this. Top view.
>   _    _
>  / \  / \
>  |  | |  |
>  |  | |  |
>  |  \_/  |
>  \___=___/
>      T
>--

>Metallurgist for International Space Station Alpha

        John - just to add another $0.02 (I think this makes it $0.06
total for me in this thread), I built mine like this:

                As if looking down into the Gott...

                     +-------+          The '+' are copper 90s.  The
                     |       |          'T' goes to the spigot.  The
                     |       |          straight pipes between the 90s
                     +---T---+          and T are slotted.  None of
                                        connections are soldered, only
                                        pushed together.

        ONLY problem is the side toward the T sits a bit off the bottom
of the cooler so the the T can attach to the spigot.  But I don't think
I'm losing that much.

        Kevin - about extraction rates.  I think your design is fine and
should work as good or better than mine or John's.  If after a couple of
tries you still get low extractions start looking at your water chemistry.
You may have to make some adjustments get get your rates up.  I'll let the
water experts add to this.
        Like you I was getting 24s-25s when I first used my Gott (beer
still tasted great though, don't let yourself get upset to much just
because your not 'hitting the numbers').  I usually mashed for 1 1/2 hours.
My last batch I added some salts to mash and got my first 30.  Unfortunately,
I also got tied up with another plumbing project (new shower fixtures) and
the mash went for 3 hours.  So I'm not sure if I got better extraction from
the salts or the increase in time or both.
        Bottom line : your design is fine.  You can start looking else-
where for your problem.

        Enjoy...

Quote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

^  Edward A. Morgan                        "It's Guinness' porter that has    ^
^  Alchemist, beer lover                       me this way!"                  ^
^  and professional idiot.                        - Drink it up Men - TIDS    ^
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<*>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 
 
 

Copper Sparge Manifold Problems

Post by Who Da » Wed, 20 Jul 1994 03:09:02


Thanks to those who responded to my explaination of my manifold design.
I brewed another batch this weekend using a double decoction mash, and
my extraction shot up to 29.8.
--
Kevin M. Hardee                      GEAUX SAINTS, GEAUX CAJUNS...

Richardson, TX                       PHONE:  (214) 996-6112