Conical Dump ?

Conical Dump ?

Post by Cary Haye » Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:06:05



So I got a conical fermenter for Christmas and for my first batch I did an
American Pale Ale and it has been fermenting very actively for slightly over
24 hours now.  I was told that this is probably a good time to begin letting
out the trub/yeast.  So I went to let this stuff out it was not the
consistency that I thought it might be.  I expected it to be more compact
and thick and instead it was very liquidy and runny.  Is this because I'm
trying to dump too early or is this how it is supposed to be?

Thanks
Cary

 
 
 

Conical Dump ?

Post by Dan Listerman » Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:48:01



Quote:
> So I got a conical fermenter for Christmas and for my first batch I did an
> American Pale Ale and it has been fermenting very actively for slightly
over
> 24 hours now.  I was told that this is probably a good time to begin
letting
> out the trub/yeast.  So I went to let this stuff out it was not the
> consistency that I thought it might be.  I expected it to be more compact
> and thick and instead it was very liquidy and runny.  Is this because I'm
> trying to dump too early or is this how it is supposed to be?

This is a point where commercial systems do not scale down to the homebrew
level well. I have built and used a variety of conical systems, but lost
interest in them for the most part.  I have worked out and tested a concept
using demijohns as conical fermenters, but I am having a hard time screwing
up the enthusiasm to pursue it.  Commercial fermenters are much taller than
anything that is practical for homebrewers.  This height represents head
pressure.  As the above post notes, dumps can be a runny waste of beer.  I
am firmly opposed to such *** abuse.  OTOH waiting for the yeast to
compact to the point where it can be "extruded" from the bottom of the
fermenter carries the risk that the yeast will become very hard and not
extrude at all.  Here is where the commercial guys have it over homebrewers.
Their fermenters are up*** feet tall, verses about 1.5 feet tall for
homebrewers.  That difference in height represents a significant difference
in head pressure on the yeast.  With up*** feet of beer above the yeast
cake a far more solid yeast "turd" can be produced.  Some breweries also are
able to let their fermenters build up pressure further enhancing their
ability to "poop" almost solid turds.

--
Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.

Quote:

> Thanks
> Cary


 
 
 

Conical Dump ?

Post by George Dahe » Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:49:40


24 hours is a bit soon. Usually after 72 hours or 3days for those who cant
count your trub will settle to the bottom and you dump that first. This way
at day 7 you dump yeast for reharvesting and not yeast and trub. This is the
way I was taught and follow. Not all dumps will come out like a Lincoln log
turd. It depends on the brew and the yeast. Usually you will get a watery
diarrhea type dump with chunks of yeast and other junk. I hope this helps
you. Cheers.....

--
George Daher
Katy, TX
"Life is good, Beer is better, Prost!!!"
www.geocities.com/sgdaher/brewery

Quote:
> So I got a conical fermenter for Christmas and for my first batch I did an
> American Pale Ale and it has been fermenting very actively for slightly
over
> 24 hours now.  I was told that this is probably a good time to begin
letting
> out the trub/yeast.  So I went to let this stuff out it was not the
> consistency that I thought it might be.  I expected it to be more compact
> and thick and instead it was very liquidy and runny.  Is this because I'm
> trying to dump too early or is this how it is supposed to be?

> Thanks
> Cary

 
 
 

Conical Dump ?

Post by George Dahe » Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:59:17


Yes and No. The weight of a gallon of water is 8.5 pounds. Beer, depending
on the gravity is heavier. But lets use 8.5lbs. On a 10 gallon batch that is
85lbs of pressure. More than adequate for pushing out a yeast turd no matter
how packed.  However if you are doing 5 gallon batches I completely agree
with dan. To improve yeast dump consistency after primary fermentation I
dissolve a pouch of unflavored gelatin in water then bring to a boil. The
pour over top of beer in fermenter. this pulls everything to the bottom and
packs it nicely not to mention really clears the beer.

--
George Daher
Katy, TX
"Life is good, Beer is better, Prost!!!"
www.geocities.com/sgdaher/brewery

Quote:


> > So I got a conical fermenter for Christmas and for my first batch I did
an
> > American Pale Ale and it has been fermenting very actively for slightly
> over
> > 24 hours now.  I was told that this is probably a good time to begin
> letting
> > out the trub/yeast.  So I went to let this stuff out it was not the
> > consistency that I thought it might be.  I expected it to be more
compact
> > and thick and instead it was very liquidy and runny.  Is this because
I'm
> > trying to dump too early or is this how it is supposed to be?

> This is a point where commercial systems do not scale down to the homebrew
> level well. I have built and used a variety of conical systems, but lost
> interest in them for the most part.  I have worked out and tested a
concept
> using demijohns as conical fermenters, but I am having a hard time
screwing
> up the enthusiasm to pursue it.  Commercial fermenters are much taller
than
> anything that is practical for homebrewers.  This height represents head
> pressure.  As the above post notes, dumps can be a runny waste of beer.  I
> am firmly opposed to such *** abuse.  OTOH waiting for the yeast to
> compact to the point where it can be "extruded" from the bottom of the
> fermenter carries the risk that the yeast will become very hard and not
> extrude at all.  Here is where the commercial guys have it over
homebrewers.
> Their fermenters are up*** feet tall, verses about 1.5 feet tall for
> homebrewers.  That difference in height represents a significant
difference
> in head pressure on the yeast.  With up*** feet of beer above the yeast
> cake a far more solid yeast "turd" can be produced.  Some breweries also
are
> able to let their fermenters build up pressure further enhancing their
> ability to "poop" almost solid turds.

> --
> Dan Listermann

> Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

> Free shipping for orders greater than $35
> and East of the Mighty Miss.

> > Thanks
> > Cary

 
 
 

Conical Dump ?

Post by Dan Listerman » Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:16:52



Quote:
> Yes and No. The weight of a gallon of water is 8.5 pounds. Beer, depending
> on the gravity is heavier. But lets use 8.5lbs. On a 10 gallon batch that
is
> 85lbs of pressure.

Hydrostatic pressure is not measured in the weight of a the total mass of
the liquid above the point of interest.  It is measured in the height of the
liquid times its density.  This is called head pressure and is expressed in
psi.  There is about 0.036 pounds of pressure per inch of height times the
specific gravity of the liquid.  This means for a 18" fermenter, the
pressure for a 1.050 gravity beer at the drain will be 0.036 * 1.050 * 18 =
0.68 psi.  Whereas a commercial fermenter might well be 20 feet high would
have about 9 pounds of pressure on the yeast cake.  Further the volume of
beer loss ratio for sloppy dumps for commercial fermenters is nothing
compared to a homebrew system.
--
Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.

More than adequate for pushing out a yeast turd no matter

Quote:
> how packed.  However if you are doing 5 gallon batches I completely agree
> with dan. To improve yeast dump consistency after primary fermentation I
> dissolve a pouch of unflavored gelatin in water then bring to a boil. The
> pour over top of beer in fermenter. this pulls everything to the bottom
and
> packs it nicely not to mention really clears the beer.

> --
> George Daher
> Katy, TX
> "Life is good, Beer is better, Prost!!!"
> www.geocities.com/sgdaher/brewery




> > > So I got a conical fermenter for Christmas and for my first batch I
did
> an
> > > American Pale Ale and it has been fermenting very actively for
slightly
> > over
> > > 24 hours now.  I was told that this is probably a good time to begin
> > letting
> > > out the trub/yeast.  So I went to let this stuff out it was not the
> > > consistency that I thought it might be.  I expected it to be more
> compact
> > > and thick and instead it was very liquidy and runny.  Is this because
> I'm
> > > trying to dump too early or is this how it is supposed to be?

> > This is a point where commercial systems do not scale down to the
homebrew
> > level well. I have built and used a variety of conical systems, but lost
> > interest in them for the most part.  I have worked out and tested a
> concept
> > using demijohns as conical fermenters, but I am having a hard time
> screwing
> > up the enthusiasm to pursue it.  Commercial fermenters are much taller
> than
> > anything that is practical for homebrewers.  This height represents head
> > pressure.  As the above post notes, dumps can be a runny waste of beer.
I
> > am firmly opposed to such *** abuse.  OTOH waiting for the yeast to
> > compact to the point where it can be "extruded" from the bottom of the
> > fermenter carries the risk that the yeast will become very hard and not
> > extrude at all.  Here is where the commercial guys have it over
> homebrewers.
> > Their fermenters are up*** feet tall, verses about 1.5 feet tall for
> > homebrewers.  That difference in height represents a significant
> difference
> > in head pressure on the yeast.  With up*** feet of beer above the yeast
> > cake a far more solid yeast "turd" can be produced.  Some breweries also
> are
> > able to let their fermenters build up pressure further enhancing their
> > ability to "poop" almost solid turds.

> > --
> > Dan Listermann

> > Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

> > Free shipping for orders greater than $35
> > and East of the Mighty Miss.

> > > Thanks
> > > Cary

 
 
 

Conical Dump ?

Post by Cary Haye » Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:13:45


Yes this is not your regular 5 gallon batch of beer.  This is a 12.5 gallon
batch of APA with an OG of 1.052.  So by Dan's calculation I would have just
over 1 psi.  Before I brewed this batch of beer I filled the fermenter to
check for leaks and to measure different batch sizes and mark them on the
side.  When I had the fermenter full of water I opened the bottom dump and
well let me just say that IMHO the pressure was way more than 1psi.  Not
only was it fast but it was loud to and I would assume that 1psi would not
be much.  I would equate that to be less than a waterhose or something like
that.

Cary

 
 
 

Conical Dump ?

Post by Cary Haye » Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:14:59


Would that be 72 hours after fermentation begins or 72 hours after you put
the wort into the fermenter.

Cary

Quote:
> 24 hours is a bit soon. Usually after 72 hours or 3days for those who cant
> count your trub will settle to the bottom and you dump that first. This
way
> at day 7 you dump yeast for reharvesting and not yeast and trub. This is
the
> way I was taught and follow. Not all dumps will come out like a Lincoln
log
> turd. It depends on the brew and the yeast. Usually you will get a watery
> diarrhea type dump with chunks of yeast and other junk. I hope this helps
> you. Cheers.....

> --
> George Daher
> Katy, TX
> "Life is good, Beer is better, Prost!!!"
> www.geocities.com/sgdaher/brewery


> > So I got a conical fermenter for Christmas and for my first batch I did
an
> > American Pale Ale and it has been fermenting very actively for slightly
> over
> > 24 hours now.  I was told that this is probably a good time to begin
> letting
> > out the trub/yeast.  So I went to let this stuff out it was not the
> > consistency that I thought it might be.  I expected it to be more
compact
> > and thick and instead it was very liquidy and runny.  Is this because
I'm
> > trying to dump too early or is this how it is supposed to be?

> > Thanks
> > Cary

 
 
 

Conical Dump ?

Post by Dan Listerman » Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:25:42


To get 1 pound of water pressure you need a head height of  almost 2 feet 4
inches.  That is just the way hydrostatic pressure works.

--
Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.


Quote:
> Yes this is not your regular 5 gallon batch of beer.  This is a 12.5
gallon
> batch of APA with an OG of 1.052.  So by Dan's calculation I would have
just
> over 1 psi.  Before I brewed this batch of beer I filled the fermenter to
> check for leaks and to measure different batch sizes and mark them on the
> side.  When I had the fermenter full of water I opened the bottom dump and
> well let me just say that IMHO the pressure was way more than 1psi.  Not
> only was it fast but it was loud to and I would assume that 1psi would not
> be much.  I would equate that to be less than a waterhose or something
like
> that.

> Cary

 
 
 

Conical Dump ?

Post by Alan McKa » Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:45:30


Quote:
> Hydrostatic pressure is not measured in the weight of a the total mass of
> the liquid above the point of interest.  It is measured in the height of the
> liquid times its density.

Be that as it may, my 5 gallon conical packed the sediment down pretty
darned hard after about 3-4 weeks.  So hard that it took me a good 10
minutes to clean out the 'collection capule' on the bottom.

cheers,
-Alan

 
 
 

Conical Dump ?

Post by Ken Anderso » Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:18:45


This seems weird, but is true. A 10 foot tall straw has the same pressure at
the bottom as does a 500 gallon tank, if that tank is also 10 feet tall. All
that matters is the height.


Quote:


> > Yes and No. The weight of a gallon of water is 8.5 pounds. Beer,
depending
> > on the gravity is heavier. But lets use 8.5lbs. On a 10 gallon batch
that
> is
> > 85lbs of pressure.

> Hydrostatic pressure is not measured in the weight of a the total mass of
> the liquid above the point of interest.  It is measured in the height of
the
> liquid times its density.  This is called head pressure and is expressed
in
> psi.  There is about 0.036 pounds of pressure per inch of height times the
> specific gravity of the liquid.  This means for a 18" fermenter, the
> pressure for a 1.050 gravity beer at the drain will be 0.036 * 1.050 * 18
=
> 0.68 psi.  Whereas a commercial fermenter might well be 20 feet high would
> have about 9 pounds of pressure on the yeast cake.  Further the volume of
> beer loss ratio for sloppy dumps for commercial fermenters is nothing
> compared to a homebrew system.
> --
> Dan Listermann

> Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

> Free shipping for orders greater than $35
> and East of the Mighty Miss.

> More than adequate for pushing out a yeast turd no matter
> > how packed.  However if you are doing 5 gallon batches I completely
agree
> > with dan. To improve yeast dump consistency after primary fermentation I
> > dissolve a pouch of unflavored gelatin in water then bring to a boil.
The
> > pour over top of beer in fermenter. this pulls everything to the bottom
> and
> > packs it nicely not to mention really clears the beer.

> > --
> > George Daher
> > Katy, TX
> > "Life is good, Beer is better, Prost!!!"
> > www.geocities.com/sgdaher/brewery




> > > > So I got a conical fermenter for Christmas and for my first batch I
> did
> > an
> > > > American Pale Ale and it has been fermenting very actively for
> slightly
> > > over
> > > > 24 hours now.  I was told that this is probably a good time to begin
> > > letting
> > > > out the trub/yeast.  So I went to let this stuff out it was not the
> > > > consistency that I thought it might be.  I expected it to be more
> > compact
> > > > and thick and instead it was very liquidy and runny.  Is this
because
> > I'm
> > > > trying to dump too early or is this how it is supposed to be?

> > > This is a point where commercial systems do not scale down to the
> homebrew
> > > level well. I have built and used a variety of conical systems, but
lost
> > > interest in them for the most part.  I have worked out and tested a
> > concept
> > > using demijohns as conical fermenters, but I am having a hard time
> > screwing
> > > up the enthusiasm to pursue it.  Commercial fermenters are much taller
> > than
> > > anything that is practical for homebrewers.  This height represents
head
> > > pressure.  As the above post notes, dumps can be a runny waste of
beer.
> I
> > > am firmly opposed to such *** abuse.  OTOH waiting for the yeast
to
> > > compact to the point where it can be "extruded" from the bottom of the
> > > fermenter carries the risk that the yeast will become very hard and
not
> > > extrude at all.  Here is where the commercial guys have it over
> > homebrewers.
> > > Their fermenters are up*** feet tall, verses about 1.5 feet tall for
> > > homebrewers.  That difference in height represents a significant
> > difference
> > > in head pressure on the yeast.  With up*** feet of beer above the
yeast
> > > cake a far more solid yeast "turd" can be produced.  Some breweries
also
> > are
> > > able to let their fermenters build up pressure further enhancing their
> > > ability to "poop" almost solid turds.

> > > --
> > > Dan Listermann

> > > Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

> > > Free shipping for orders greater than $35
> > > and East of the Mighty Miss.

> > > > Thanks
> > > > Cary

---
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Conical Dump ?

Post by Alan McKa » Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:29:02


Quote:
> This seems weird, but is true. A 10 foot tall straw has the same pressure at
> the bottom as does a 500 gallon tank, if that tank is also 10 feet tall. All
> that matters is the height.

But does not a conical concentrate that onto a much smaller area
on the bottom?

cheers,
-Alan

 
 
 

Conical Dump ?

Post by Ken Anderso » Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:58:15


The pressure at any point along the conical bottom surface is only dependent
upon the height of the water directly above it. It doesn't get "deflected"
towards the bottom center. This is my recollection from school, which
reminds me, "HOW ABOUT THEM OHIO STATE BUCKEYES!!!"    : )
Ken Anderson (enjoying his latest lager)


Quote:
> > This seems weird, but is true. A 10 foot tall straw has the same
pressure at
> > the bottom as does a 500 gallon tank, if that tank is also 10 feet tall.
All
> > that matters is the height.

> But does not a conical concentrate that onto a much smaller area
> on the bottom?

> cheers,
> -Alan

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Conical Dump ?

Post by Jerry Barkle » Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:00:07



Quote:
> > This seems weird, but is true. A 10 foot tall straw has the same
pressure at
> > the bottom as does a 500 gallon tank, if that tank is also 10 feet tall.
All
> > that matters is the height.

> But does not a conical concentrate that onto a much smaller area
> on the bottom?

 no, the pressure in a liquid at depth h is determined by the function
p=rho*g*h, where h is the depth below the surface, rho is the density of the
liquid and g is the accelleration due to gravity. also, since pressure is
defined as the force per unit of area, the actual area at the bottom of the
container does not change the pressure at the outlet.

--
Cheers
Jerry Barkley

--
http://webpages.charter.net/gbarkley/
--
"It's not a popularity contest, it's beer!"
Mike Dixon
--

Quote:

> cheers,
> -Alan

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 1/11/2003
 
 
 

Conical Dump ?

Post by George Dahe » Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:38:07


After pitching, or in a fermenter it does not matter. the stuff that falls
to the bottom is junk that will not ferment anyway. It is just settling to
the bottom. I wait three days versus one because some get caught in
suspension and fall when fermentation starts...

--
George Daher
Katy, TX
"Life is good, Beer is better, Prost!!!"
www.geocities.com/sgdaher/brewery

Quote:
> Would that be 72 hours after fermentation begins or 72 hours after you put
> the wort into the fermenter.

> Cary


> > 24 hours is a bit soon. Usually after 72 hours or 3days for those who
cant
> > count your trub will settle to the bottom and you dump that first. This
> way
> > at day 7 you dump yeast for reharvesting and not yeast and trub. This is
> the
> > way I was taught and follow. Not all dumps will come out like a Lincoln
> log
> > turd. It depends on the brew and the yeast. Usually you will get a
watery
> > diarrhea type dump with chunks of yeast and other junk. I hope this
helps
> > you. Cheers.....

> > --
> > George Daher
> > Katy, TX
> > "Life is good, Beer is better, Prost!!!"
> > www.geocities.com/sgdaher/brewery


> > > So I got a conical fermenter for Christmas and for my first batch I
did
> an
> > > American Pale Ale and it has been fermenting very actively for
slightly
> > over
> > > 24 hours now.  I was told that this is probably a good time to begin
> > letting
> > > out the trub/yeast.  So I went to let this stuff out it was not the
> > > consistency that I thought it might be.  I expected it to be more
> compact
> > > and thick and instead it was very liquidy and runny.  Is this because
> I'm
> > > trying to dump too early or is this how it is supposed to be?

> > > Thanks
> > > Cary

 
 
 

Conical Dump ?

Post by MDixo » Tue, 28 Jan 2003 01:30:54



Quote:
> To get 1 pound of water pressure you need a head height of  almost 2 feet
4
> inches.  That is just the way hydrostatic pressure works.

2.31'... but who's counting ...;)

Cheers,
Mike