to dump or not to dump that is the question.

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Michal Palczewsk » Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:16:44



Well I'm trying to figure out what to do with this belgian that won't
finish.  It started at 1.084 in November as a strong dark ale.  The mash
was at 150 and it included two pounds of sugar.

I started with Wyeast 1762 and that stopped at around 1.040 and wouldn't
go any further. Still tasted like pancake syrup.  I think it was too
cold at my house (60F) for that yeast.  So I dumped in a packet of
Champagne yeast.  I like my Belgian ales dry so I thought this ought to
do the trick.  Over a month later and it was still only at 1.030.  Still
tasting quite under attenuated.  Then I thought that Bretanomyces would
really dry it out.  I contacted wyeast and they said that the alchohol
tolerance for both their brets is 15%.  This was a 10 gal batch so I
pitched one of each type into 5 gal carboy.  I thought surely these
critters could do the job and I'd get a nice oud bruin like strong ale.
  I love Bret Brux and My wife loves Bret lambicus.  After a few
months(3) they are at 1.020 and still tasting rather underattenuated.
Whenever I shake the carboy(daily) tons of bubbles appear.  In the past
month and a half the gravity went down to 1.019 and it still tastes very
sweet.  Even though it forms about a 1-2 inch high head whenever I try
to get the yeast back into suspension.  I've tried adding calcium
carbonate perhaps the acidity was too high, but this didn't help. Can I
save my brew?  Should I dump it?  It's been since November and it's
really trying my patience.  Even a strong dark isn't supposed to take
this long.

BTW I'm never using 1762 again.

 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Ron Lynn » Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:25:45


Well, I don't have a solution for your problem, but I'll tell you this,
DON'T THROW IT AWAY (yet). I remember that from Charlie's books. Exhaust
every possibility first.

Cheers,
Ron

Quote:

> Well I'm trying to figure out what to do with this belgian that won't
> finish.  It started at 1.084 in November as a strong dark ale.  The mash
> was at 150 and it included two pounds of sugar.

> I started with Wyeast 1762 and that stopped at around 1.040 and wouldn't
> go any further. Still tasted like pancake syrup.  I think it was too
> cold at my house (60F) for that yeast.  So I dumped in a packet of
> Champagne yeast.  I like my Belgian ales dry so I thought this ought to
> do the trick.  Over a month later and it was still only at 1.030.  Still
> tasting quite under attenuated.  Then I thought that Bretanomyces would
> really dry it out.  I contacted wyeast and they said that the alchohol
> tolerance for both their brets is 15%.  This was a 10 gal batch so I
> pitched one of each type into 5 gal carboy.  I thought surely these
> critters could do the job and I'd get a nice oud bruin like strong ale.
>   I love Bret Brux and My wife loves Bret lambicus.  After a few
> months(3) they are at 1.020 and still tasting rather underattenuated.
> Whenever I shake the carboy(daily) tons of bubbles appear.  In the past
> month and a half the gravity went down to 1.019 and it still tastes very
> sweet.  Even though it forms about a 1-2 inch high head whenever I try
> to get the yeast back into suspension.  I've tried adding calcium
> carbonate perhaps the acidity was too high, but this didn't help. Can I
> save my brew?  Should I dump it?  It's been since November and it's
> really trying my patience.  Even a strong dark isn't supposed to take
> this long.

> BTW I'm never using 1762 again.


 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Dan Listerman » Sat, 26 Jun 2004 21:27:44


What final gravity are you shooting for?  1.084 to 1.019 is not out of line,
certainly not worth considering scrapping.

Dan Listermann


Quote:
> Well I'm trying to figure out what to do with this belgian that won't
> finish.  It started at 1.084 in November as a strong dark ale.  The mash
> was at 150 and it included two pounds of sugar.

> I started with Wyeast 1762 and that stopped at around 1.040 and wouldn't
> go any further. Still tasted like pancake syrup.  I think it was too
> cold at my house (60F) for that yeast.  So I dumped in a packet of
> Champagne yeast.  I like my Belgian ales dry so I thought this ought to
> do the trick.  Over a month later and it was still only at 1.030.  Still
> tasting quite under attenuated.  Then I thought that Bretanomyces would
> really dry it out.  I contacted wyeast and they said that the alchohol
> tolerance for both their brets is 15%.  This was a 10 gal batch so I
> pitched one of each type into 5 gal carboy.  I thought surely these
> critters could do the job and I'd get a nice oud bruin like strong ale.
>   I love Bret Brux and My wife loves Bret lambicus.  After a few
> months(3) they are at 1.020 and still tasting rather underattenuated.
> Whenever I shake the carboy(daily) tons of bubbles appear.  In the past
> month and a half the gravity went down to 1.019 and it still tastes very
> sweet.  Even though it forms about a 1-2 inch high head whenever I try
> to get the yeast back into suspension.  I've tried adding calcium
> carbonate perhaps the acidity was too high, but this didn't help. Can I
> save my brew?  Should I dump it?  It's been since November and it's
> really trying my patience.  Even a strong dark isn't supposed to take
> this long.

> BTW I'm never using 1762 again.

 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Darth Marl » Sat, 26 Jun 2004 22:42:58


Did you really put the sugar in the mash?
I can think of a few good reasons that I would avoid that, and add it
in secondary instead.
But, I am not certain catabolic repression would explain this either.

My brewbuddy & I are having a similar problem with a barleywine. After
a few yeast adds, no help.

What we are going to try is the addition of some amylase enzymes to
the fermenter.

Looks like brewery.org is squirrelly for some reason, quite a shame
that is.
They had a few good articles on stuck fermentations. One included
results from taking some active mash runnings and adding to fermenter
to get some beta amylase to chew on some carbs.

Don't dump it. Buy some extra fermenters instead.

 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Michal Palczewsk » Sat, 26 Jun 2004 22:46:02


Quote:

> What final gravity are you shooting for?  1.084 to 1.019 is not out of line,
> certainly not worth considering scrapping.

That's true, but it doesn't seam done.  Usually when a beer is done it
doesn't foam a bunch when you stir it.  Beers fermented with champagne
yeast and or bretanomyces tend to not taste sweet.  Also with 2 pounds
of sugar in there and a mash temp of 150 one would expect a more
fermentable wort.  I feel like I've expanded every possibility except
more time.
 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Dan Listerman » Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:07:04



Quote:

> > What final gravity are you shooting for?  1.084 to 1.019 is not out of
line,
> > certainly not worth considering scrapping.

> That's true, but it doesn't seam done.  Usually when a beer is done it
> doesn't foam a bunch when you stir it.

It is probably not fermenting.  The foam is probably just CO2 still in
solution.

 Beers fermented with champagne

Quote:
> yeast and or bretanomyces tend to not taste sweet.

It depends primarilly on what went into the wort, not the yeast.  Yeast
plays a poor second fiddle to the make up of the wort.

Also with 2 pounds

Quote:
> of sugar in there and a mash temp of 150 one would expect a more
> fermentable wort.  I feel like I've expanded every possibility except
> more time.

Yes that is true, I calculate that you got 71% attenuation without the
sugar.  This is still not out of the ordinary.
 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Droo » Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:51:53


You could try warming it up a bit, that may kick up the activity.  Or
even aerating it a bit, it may not have had the O2 to fully attenuate.
 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesa » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:27:26


Quote:

> Well I'm trying to figure out what to do with this belgian that won't
> finish.  It started at 1.084 in November as a strong dark ale.  The mash
> was at 150 and it included two pounds of sugar.

>   I love Bret Brux and My wife loves Bret lambicus.  After a few
> months(3) they are at 1.020 and still tasting rather underattenuated.
> Whenever I shake the carboy(daily) tons of bubbles appear.  In the past
> month and a half the gravity went down to 1.019 and it still tastes very
> sweet.  Even though it forms about a 1-2 inch high head whenever I try
> to get the yeast back into suspension.  I've tried adding calcium
> carbonate perhaps the acidity was too high, but this didn't help. Can I
> save my brew?  Should I dump it?  It's been since November and it's
> really trying my patience.  Even a strong dark isn't supposed to take
> this long.

1.084 to 1.019 is around 77% attenuation.  It may be done.  The CO2 you
are seeing could possibly be residual gas still in solution, depending on
how much of it there really is.  Regarding the sweetness, what was your
IBUs or hopping schedule for a 1.084 beer?

John.

 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Michal Palczewsk » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:57:06


That's just the problem it SEAMS like it's just not done fermenting.  As
opposed to not being fermentable.
Quote:

> Did you really put the sugar in the mash?
> I can think of a few good reasons that I would avoid that, and add it
> in secondary instead.
> But, I am not certain catabolic repression would explain this either.

> My brewbuddy & I are having a similar problem with a barleywine. After
> a few yeast adds, no help.

> What we are going to try is the addition of some amylase enzymes to
> the fermenter.

> Looks like brewery.org is squirrelly for some reason, quite a shame
> that is.
> They had a few good articles on stuck fermentations. One included
> results from taking some active mash runnings and adding to fermenter
> to get some beta amylase to chew on some carbs.

> Don't dump it. Buy some extra fermenters instead.

 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Michal Palczewsk » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:20:23


Quote:

> It is probably not fermenting.  The foam is probably just CO2 still in
> solution.

In past experience the foam eventually stops coming.  I do agitate it
daily and I get alot of foam daily.  I even see many bubbles on top of
the wort after it has had a day to sit around.  I'll post pictures when
I get home.
 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Denny Con » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 02:01:54


Quote:

> BTW I'm never using 1762 again.

I really don't think yuou can necessarily balme it on 1762..it's
possible, of course, that you got a bad tube, but it's been a realy
good, reliable strain for me.  What did your starter look like?  Did it
seem sluggish at all.  BTW, at least you're at 75% attenuation now!

        --------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_dot_g_dot_conn_at_ci_dot_eugene_dot_or_dot_us

 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Michal Palczewsk » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 02:48:59


I used a yeast cake from a previous batch.  I'm not really blaming it
it's just that I didn't really like the taste of 1762.
Quote:


>>BTW I'm never using 1762 again.

> I really don't think yuou can necessarily balme it on 1762..it's
> possible, of course, that you got a bad tube, but it's been a realy
> good, reliable strain for me.  What did your starter look like?  Did it
> seem sluggish at all.  BTW, at least you're at 75% attenuation now!

>    --------->Denny

 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Denny Con » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 03:10:05


Quote:

> I used a yeast cake from a previous batch.  I'm not really blaming it
> it's just that I didn't really like the taste of 1762.

Ah, that's different!  Personally, it's one of my faves for flavor.  But
taht doesn't mean you should like it!

        --------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_dot_g_dot_conn_at_ci_dot_eugene_dot_or_dot_us

 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Michae » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 03:46:00



Quote:
> You could try warming it up a bit, that may kick up the activity.  Or
> even aerating it a bit, it may not have had the O2 to fully attenuate.

A quick way to ruin this batch. Don't aerate!

Michael

 
 
 

to dump or not to dump that is the question.

Post by Droo » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 09:01:56


Quote:
> A quick way to ruin this batch. Don't aerate!

I suppose you are right, it is a little late in the game to try and
rescue it that way.  I know that some brewers add a second aeration
step during fermentation....but that is during primary. Plus as Dan
and others have pointed out it is already fairly well attenuated as
is.

I was just thinking that if he had added fresh yeast a little more O2
would help them pull the gravity down...because as it stands it will
be pretty devoid of O2 and adding fresh yeast with an already high
*** content and (relatively) low residual sugar really won't get
you anywhere without some oxygen.