LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Thomas Ra » Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:06:46



This winter I'll be building a Bruiser-EXP.  I've decided to convert it to
dual-deploy and use a BlackSKY ARRD so all the laundry will come out of the
payload bay.  A stock EXP is 12.5 lbs, I figure mine will be closer to 17
lbs with the mods.  Now my question concerns the chutes.  I'm planning on
using a Rocketman R24D drogue at apogee restrained by the ARRD.  Then for
main deployment the ARRD releases allowing the drogue to pull out a R12C in
a deployment bag.  Everything I have read shows this to be a good
combination, but as always a little apprehensive about doing something new
(for me that is).  Does anyone see any problems with this configuration?

--
------
Thomas Rau
NAR 80711 L2
TRA 50933 L2

 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Ron Zeppi » Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:16:06


Sounds like a good layout to me... pretty much the same deal I'm doing with
my BlackHawk R&D Rapier, except I'm using a PyroRelease of my own design.

R

--
Ron Zeppin
AHPRA
XRAA
www.ahpra.org


Quote:
> This winter I'll be building a Bruiser-EXP.  I've decided to convert it to
> dual-deploy and use a BlackSKY ARRD so all the laundry will come out of
the
> payload bay.  A stock EXP is 12.5 lbs, I figure mine will be closer to 17
> lbs with the mods.  Now my question concerns the chutes.  I'm planning on
> using a Rocketman R24D drogue at apogee restrained by the ARRD.  Then for
> main deployment the ARRD releases allowing the drogue to pull out a R12C
in
> a deployment bag.  Everything I have read shows this to be a good
> combination, but as always a little apprehensive about doing something new
> (for me that is).  Does anyone see any problems with this configuration?

> --
> ------
> Thomas Rau
> NAR 80711 L2
> TRA 50933 L2


 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Actionxp » Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:50:19


Tom
In my experience the Rocketman R24D is way too small to use as a drouge chute,
on anything but a small rocket. I'm not even sure it would create enough drag
to the keep a rocket this big, in a vertical position, much less pull the main
chute out. I'd go with at least an R5 or better, an R7 for the drouge. Also, I
use an R12 on my 11lb Warloc (about 1/3 of a Bruiser EXP) and it lands softly.
On my 18 lb Warloc (glassed with G-10 fins, 4 inch mount) it lands fairly hard.
If you can keep the weight to 17 lbs, you should be OK but I'd beef up the fin
mount.
 Both my Bruiser EXP's ( glassed, G-10, thru the wall fins, one with a 4 inch
mount and one with the stock, 3 motor configuration) weigh around 30 lbs. An
R14 is not enough for these. I've even got an old style, R18 that is barely
enough (although the "newer" style should be fine). As long as you're using
dual deployment, why not go directly to the R14. If you have to buy one or the
other, the R 14 will be usable in bigger rockets, anyway. Ky also sells an R16
(that he doesn't list). I've seen heavier rockets land just fine, using this
chute. Hope this helps.

       Lloyd Wood
       BRS Secretary
       Level lll

 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Doc » Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:36:49



Quote:
> Sounds like a good layout to me... pretty much the same deal I'm doing
with
> my BlackHawk R&D Rapier, except I'm using a PyroRelease of my own design.

> R

Can you share with us your design? I'd love to see it. I'm building a 12'
tall bird from a Briser EXP (bigger fins and a 28" ring fin) using four 38mm
and one 54mm. I want to do the same type of pyro release to deploy two 84"
chutes after drouge.

Doc

--
Drake" Doc" Damerau 79986 L2
President NEPRA, NAR Section 614
www.nepra.com
HPR Strength of Materials Site:
http://rocketmaterials.org
(Remove "my shorts" to email me)

 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Kurt Kesle » Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:52:03




Quote:
> Tom
> In my experience the Rocketman R24D is way too small to use as a drouge chute,
> on anything but a small rocket.

Today I am Lloyd's yes man.  Use something sized like an R4 - R7.

The R24D makes a great main chute for kits like a Fatboy.
--
Kurt Kesler

 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Duane Wilk » Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:14:00


Lloyd Wood Wrote:

Quote:
> Both my Bruiser EXP's ( glassed, G-10, thru the wall fins, one with a 4 inch
>mount and one with the stock, 3 motor configuration) weigh around 30 lbs. An
>R14 is not enough for these.

Gee Lloyd,

I use an R14 to bring down both my 35 lb Nike and my 25 lb Ultimate Endevor.
They land just find and don't drift too far and they haven't broke yet.

An R18 would drift way too far for either of these rockets.

The Nike's aft section has beefed up construction and the UE's fin can is
foamed.

No landing damage to date. ( If you don't count the time I forgot the seal the
altimeter bay.)

Duane Wilkey
NAR 63416/TRA 4294 L3
L3CC

Duane Wilkey
NAR 63416 TRA 4295 (L3)
NAR L3CC Member

 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Woody Mille » Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:08:03


My Loc Bruiser EXP-3 (unglassed) has been flow and recovered without on scratch
on a R12 main and an R7 drogue.  It's set up for "traditional" dual deploy.  The
  drogue is packed above the motor and below the payload bay, the altimeters in
the payload bay coupler, and main ejecting from the top of the payload bay.

Without a motor or recovery stuff the bird was ~25 lbs, and ready for flight it
was in the low 40's.  The field was open desert, although not as hard as I've
seen elsewhere.  It landed <1 mile from the pad and hit about 9000' on a M1315.

I've used the same chute config on a Smokin' Rockets Mega Nuk..  It's flight
weight was maybe 8 pounds higher (it was glassed) , and it landed < .75 miles
from the pad (another M1315).

The R7 might have been a bit more than needed, and resulted in a bit more drift,
but you could see that it had deployed.....

Quote:

> Lloyd Wood Wrote:

>>Both my Bruiser EXP's ( glassed, G-10, thru the wall fins, one with a 4 inch
>>mount and one with the stock, 3 motor configuration) weigh around 30 lbs. An
>>R14 is not enough for these.

> Gee Lloyd,

> I use an R14 to bring down both my 35 lb Nike and my 25 lb Ultimate Endevor.
> They land just find and don't drift too far and they haven't broke yet.

> An R18 would drift way too far for either of these rockets.

> The Nike's aft section has beefed up construction and the UE's fin can is
> foamed.

> No landing damage to date. ( If you don't count the time I forgot the seal the
> altimeter bay.)

> Duane Wilkey
> NAR 63416/TRA 4294 L3
> L3CC

> Duane Wilkey
> NAR 63416 TRA 4295 (L3)
> NAR L3CC Member

 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Bill Wehne » Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:56:29


Thomas,

I'm heading down a similar path in that I want to give a tether system a try
(see my previous post).  I was leaning towards Defy Gravity's tether given
its price vs. BlackSky's ARRD.  Any reason you're goin' with BlackSky?  Just
curious.

What's the configuration you're looking to use?  Sounds like your main is
hooked to the ARRD, apogee charge on top of the main, drogue on top of the
apogee charge.  This is what I'm thinking for mine, although I've got 2
concerns: 1) since tether separates inside the airframe it could damage the
airframe.  I'm thinking of reinforcing the airframe with a coupler tube. 2)
I'll need a LOT of protection for the main chute (since the apogee charge
will essentially be sitting on top of it).

I'm interested in hearing what you're planning.....wondering if there's
something I haven't thought of.

--
Bill Wehner
TRA #08913  L2
NAR #79387 L2
METRA

Quote:
> This winter I'll be building a Bruiser-EXP.  I've decided to convert it to
> dual-deploy and use a BlackSKY ARRD so all the laundry will come out of
the
> payload bay.  A stock EXP is 12.5 lbs, I figure mine will be closer to 17
> lbs with the mods.  Now my question concerns the chutes.  I'm planning on
> using a Rocketman R24D drogue at apogee restrained by the ARRD.  Then for
> main deployment the ARRD releases allowing the drogue to pull out a R12C
in
> a deployment bag.  Everything I have read shows this to be a good
> combination, but as always a little apprehensive about doing something new
> (for me that is).  Does anyone see any problems with this configuration?

> --
> ------
> Thomas Rau
> NAR 80711 L2
> TRA 50933 L2

 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Mark Simpso » Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:08:09


most deleted

Quote:
> Duane Wilkey
> NAR 63416/TRA 4294 L3
> L3CC

> Duane Wilkey
> NAR 63416 TRA 4295 (L3)
> NAR L3CC Member

Split personality now, Duane, or is CRS setting in? >;-)

Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II

 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Ron Zeppi » Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:26:59


I HIGHLY recommend a Deployment Bag for the main... LOTS of protection from
ejection gases, and also helps with the deployment of the laundry
tremendously!!! You reduce the odds of a tangle by a ton!!

R

--
Ron Zeppin
AHPRA
XRAA
www.ahpra.org


Quote:
> Thomas,

> I'm heading down a similar path in that I want to give a tether system a
try
> (see my previous post).  I was leaning towards Defy Gravity's tether given
> its price vs. BlackSky's ARRD.  Any reason you're goin' with BlackSky?
Just
> curious.

> What's the configuration you're looking to use?  Sounds like your main is
> hooked to the ARRD, apogee charge on top of the main, drogue on top of the
> apogee charge.  This is what I'm thinking for mine, although I've got 2
> concerns: 1) since tether separates inside the airframe it could damage
the
> airframe.  I'm thinking of reinforcing the airframe with a coupler tube.
2)
> I'll need a LOT of protection for the main chute (since the apogee charge
> will essentially be sitting on top of it).

> I'm interested in hearing what you're planning.....wondering if there's
> something I haven't thought of.

> --
> Bill Wehner
> TRA #08913  L2
> NAR #79387 L2
> METRA


> > This winter I'll be building a Bruiser-EXP.  I've decided to convert it
to
> > dual-deploy and use a BlackSKY ARRD so all the laundry will come out of
> the
> > payload bay.  A stock EXP is 12.5 lbs, I figure mine will be closer to
17
> > lbs with the mods.  Now my question concerns the chutes.  I'm planning
on
> > using a Rocketman R24D drogue at apogee restrained by the ARRD.  Then
for
> > main deployment the ARRD releases allowing the drogue to pull out a R12C
> in
> > a deployment bag.  Everything I have read shows this to be a good
> > combination, but as always a little apprehensive about doing something
new
> > (for me that is).  Does anyone see any problems with this configuration?

> > --
> > ------
> > Thomas Rau
> > NAR 80711 L2
> > TRA 50933 L2

 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Deave » Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:26:31


For larger rockets like yours I would recommend you use a free bag.
Let the nose cone come down by the drogue. There's less chance of
tanglement. I have seen the gas discharge from a ARRD blow thru
the body tube sidewall. You may what to ground test to see if this will
affect your design and ARRD placement.
Gary Deaver


Quote:
> This winter I'll be building a Bruiser-EXP.  I've decided to convert it to
> dual-deploy and use a BlackSKY ARRD so all the laundry will come out of
the
> payload bay.  A stock EXP is 12.5 lbs, I figure mine will be closer to 17
> lbs with the mods.  Now my question concerns the chutes.  I'm planning on
> using a Rocketman R24D drogue at apogee restrained by the ARRD.  Then for
> main deployment the ARRD releases allowing the drogue to pull out a R12C
in
> a deployment bag.  Everything I have read shows this to be a good
> combination, but as always a little apprehensive about doing something new
> (for me that is).  Does anyone see any problems with this configuration?

> --
> ------
> Thomas Rau
> NAR 80711 L2
> TRA 50933 L2

 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Thomas Ra » Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:28:37



Quote:
> Thomas,

> I'm heading down a similar path in that I want to give a tether system a
try
> (see my previous post).  I was leaning towards Defy Gravity's tether given
> its price vs. BlackSky's ARRD.  Any reason you're goin' with BlackSky?
Just
> curious.

> What's the configuration you're looking to use?  Sounds like your main is
> hooked to the ARRD, apogee charge on top of the main, drogue on top of the
> apogee charge.  This is what I'm thinking for mine, although I've got 2
> concerns: 1) since tether separates inside the airframe it could damage
the
> airframe.  I'm thinking of reinforcing the airframe with a coupler tube.
2)
> I'll need a LOT of protection for the main chute (since the apogee charge
> will essentially be sitting on top of it).

> I'm interested in hearing what you're planning.....wondering if there's
> something I haven't thought of.

> --
> Bill Wehner
> TRA #08913  L2
> NAR #79387 L2
> METRA
>snip

Bill,

I decided on the ARRD simply because I liked its contained design.  No parts
flying apart inside the body tube.  The design I've worked out (on paper) is
the U-Bolt on one side (close to wall) of the bulkhead and the ARRD mounted
on the other side.  IE U-Bolt at the 9 o'clock and ARRD at the 3 o'clock
positions.  The ejection canister will mounted towards the 12 o'clock
position on the bulkhead and have an extension tube extending above the
resting position of the deployment bag for the main.  As for the way things
connect it will be a tubular nylon shock cord  from the u-bolt to the main.
The deployment bag loop has a thinner shock cord running to the ARRD then on
to the drogue.  The drogue will have a Kevlar/Nomex chute protector to
protect it from the ejection charge.  This way the drogue is held by the
ARRD and when triggered will pull out the deployment bag.

--
------
Thomas Rau
NAR 80711 L2
TRA 50933 L2

 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Thomas Ra » Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:32:28


Thanks for the feedback!  Looks like the general consensus is that I need to
go with a bigger drogue.

--
------
Thomas Rau
NAR 80711 L2
TRA 50933 L2

 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Actionxp » Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:48:01


Quote:
>Gee Lloyd,

>I use an R14 to bring down both my 35 lb Nike and my 25 lb Ultimate Endevor.
>They land just find and don't drift too far and they haven't broke yet.

>An R18 would drift way too far for either of these rockets.

>The Nike's aft section has beefed up construction and the UE's fin can is
>foamed.

>No landing damage to date. ( If you don't count the time I forgot the seal
>the
>altimeter bay.)

>Duane Wilkey
>NAR 63416/TRA 4294 L3
>L3CC

Duane
Yeah, but you build your rockets WAY tuffer than I build mine.  And if you
would pop the main lower, you wouldn't get so much drift, either!!!!!:-)
Seriously, though.....I use an R-14 on most of my bigger rocket flights, too.
The R-18 that I have is one of the old X form types.... one of the ones Ray
used on his Aries. I used it on my 80 pounder and, while it worked just fine,
the rocket did land hard. I've found it to be quite nice for a 30 to 40
pounder, though.
  When I made my recommendation, I was assuming a fairly stock build, on the
Bruiser EXP, which includes the fins NOT going thru to the motor tube. If the
fins DO go thru to the motor tube, he could probably land it on an R- 9 with
little problems. I've seen LOC's 7.5 inchers pop a fin off real easily, if
built stock. I've also seen stock ones land just fine, even using the stock
chute.
 It all depends on two things (three if you count luck). The wind and the
hardness of the ground. If a stock built rocket hooks a fin, it will (probably)
pop right off. If it lands too fast, the bottem of the rocket will (again,
probably) be damaged. On the soft ground, in Geneseo landing hard isn't a
problem. Digging a fin in, is. On ground like Kansas (where the HUGE furrows
dry to a granite like hardness) landing too hard would be more of a problem. Of
course, than there's the wind. While using a bigger chute will bring the rocket
in softer, it will drift MUCH farther. Also (again in places like Kansas) the
high wind will drag  a rocket with a big chute along the ground or thru those
afore mentioned furrows and shred it worse than almost any normal landing
would.
 In short, I change chute sizes to try to minamize what I precive to be the
biggest problem. Some times (most, actually) I need to get the rocket down with
as little drift as possible. This means coming in fast and landing hard. On all
my newer ones, I haven't  had any landing damage either, but I build the back
end strong (read heavy:-). After poping a few of my own fins, I decided this
would be the best compremise.
 By the way.....are you planning on doing Kansas again? It looks like a bunch
of us are.
 And, since we haven't any "serious" controversies on RMR lately :-) Why don't
we discuss the merrits of using chute bags as opposed to blankets! Than we
could segway into a discussion on the "proper" way to fold a chute, and weather
or not to wrap shroud lines around the chute. Should make for a real lively
discussion:-). Talk to you soon.

        Lloyd Wood
        BRS Secretary
        Level lll

 
 
 

LOC Bruiser EXP recovery question

Post by Kurt Kesle » Thu, 12 Dec 2002 22:30:06




Quote:
>  And, since we haven't any "serious" controversies on RMR lately :-) Why don't
> we discuss the merrits of using chute bags as opposed to blankets! Than we
> could segway into a discussion on the "proper" way to fold a chute, and weather
> or not to wrap shroud lines around the chute. Should make for a real lively
> discussion:-). Talk to you soon.

>         Lloyd Wood
>         BRS Secretary
>         Level lll

OK, I'm in.  Put your baby in a blanket, not your chutes.  Stuff the
chute in a bag, then the lines...no wrapping (even though it is almost
X-mas).
--
Kurt Kesler