LOC IV

LOC IV

Post by Ted Mahle » Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:00:00



  I just received a LOC IV and I must say I am a bit disappointed
with, what I thought, would be my first "real" high power kit.
I have built two Estes NCR kits with a third waiting, and they
seem to me to be much better kits. NRC kits have the full size
tab fins that reach all the way to the motor tube while the LOC
tabs extend barely inside the body tube.
 NCR centering rings are molded plastic (three of them) with
slots to align the fins. LOC has two plywood rings with no slots.
Included parachutes are a draw as are the nosecones although the LOC
seems a bit thicker.
 Shock cord mounting is my biggest concern. NCR has that very nice
Gorilla grip steel cable that anchors into the top centering ring.
LOC has a length of nylon string that is masking taped to the side
wall and epoxed over. Does anyone really do that? Do folks put in
some kind of eyebolt instead?
 Last, the motor mount. Estes has the plastic ring to lock in their
Dark Star engine. Of course I don't think any other engine will fit
because of that design. But LOC has nothing and relies on a friction
fit (I hate friction fits). I plan on installing the PVC motor mount
detailed in last months SpRocketry.
  Since I hear a lot of "nose thumbing" at anything with "Estes" on it,
I expected to see a big step up in other companies kits. In this
case I think my NCR, if I could figure out how to mount the motor, could
handle anything this LOC could.
 So, once again, what do you folks do for a shock cord mount in a LOC IV?

--
        +----------__(')__----------------------------+
        |    (')-//__l|l__\\                          |
        |       \O_\/lol\/_O__  Ted Mahler  NAR 18184 |
        |       /O`. [ ]  ;O_L\             N5ZYO     |
        |      _\__\_[ ]_/__/_/                       |

        |    /_\l___|_H_|___|/_\                      |
        |   /       '-H-`       \                     |
        +-~~~--------~'~--------~~~-------------------+

 
 
 

LOC IV

Post by Peter Olivo » Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:00:00




Quote:
>  I just received a LOC IV and I must say I am a bit disappointed
>with, what I thought, would be my first "real" high power kit.

                        <snip>

Quote:
> So, once again, what do you folks do for a shock cord mount in a LOC IV?

I don't consider the LOC IV a high power kit.  I don't think LOC does
either.  That said, it's only flaw is the short fin tabs.  Friction
fitting single use motors is common practice in HPR and far less of a
problem than it can be in model rockets due to the larger motor
diameters.  

If you're concerned about positive retention for use with reloads,
there are any number of cheap and easy schemes, including the Kaplow
Klip, that get the job done reliably.

The shock cord mount has been in successful use since it showed up in
the first of Ron's kits.  I've use it, the gorilla mount and various
other schemes and I've found it to be completely reliable up through
anything you could build for Level I HPR.

It's interesting that Estes has gone to plastic centering rings.
Interesting because LOC's ply rings are the best in the business and
NCR's were pretty sloppy.  I think you're looking at a bean counter
decision, not better engineering.



 
 
 

LOC IV

Post by SoAR » Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Where the (deleted) did you get the NCR Fin tabs reach to the motor tube???I
like LOC..........im begening to hate the cheap estes BS
 
 
 

LOC IV

Post by Cliff Crouc » Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:00:00




Quote:
>Where the (deleted) did you get the NCR Fin tabs reach to the motor tube???I
>like LOC..........im begening to hate the cheap estes BS

On every NCR kit I've built the fin tabs reach the motor tube (had to do a
little sanding on the motor mount though). I just don't like the NCR
instructions (they are horrible on the bomarc). I have not tried the LOC kits
yet, so I can't comment on those. I do like the shock cord mount on the NCR
kit. Overall I would say NCR kits are decent rockets and would be a lot better
if they had better instructions.
 
 
 

LOC IV

Post by Ted Mahle » Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
>>Where the (deleted) did you get the NCR Fin tabs reach to the motor tube???I
>>like LOC..........im begening to hate the cheap estes BS

> On every NCR kit I've built the fin tabs reach the motor tube (had to do a
<snip>
> if they had better instructions.

 Yep, all mine reached the motor tube also. Its the fin alignment slots  
in those thick centering rings I really like. Nice firm fin mounting
system. All in all I am beginning
to appreciate the NCR kits. A bit expensive but I bought 2 of my 3 at
40% off. At my local Hobby lobby they are at full price and gathering
dust. WHen they get tired of them and put them on sale I'll snap up
the ones I don't have and see what I can do to make them suitable for
motors other than the Darkstar (which I also like, but they are a bit
whimpy for these models.)

 I have not built a Bomarc but on the others I thought the instructions
were okay. LOC's are rather brief (but of course the rocket is pretty
simple) and printed on the back of the "label" card. I stepped out at
lunch and picked up the PVC fittings to make the Universal motor retention
system (July/August SpRocketry) but forgot to get some eyebolts for a
shock cord system. I just don't like the looks of the method LOC uses
for motor retention (none, well okay,, friction) and shock cord
anchor (string glued to the sidewall).
--
        +----------__(')__----------------------------+
        |    (')-//__l|l__\\                          |
        |       \O_\/lol\/_O__  Ted Mahler  NAR 18184 |
        |       /O`. [ ]  ;O_L\             N5ZYO     |
        |      _\__\_[ ]_/__/_/                       |

        |    /_\l___|_H_|___|/_\                      |
        |   /       '-H-`       \                     |
        +-~~~--------~'~--------~~~-------------------+

 
 
 

LOC IV

Post by SoAR » Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:00:00




Quote:
>  I just received a LOC IV and I must say I am a bit disappointed
>with, what I thought, would be my first "real" high power kit.

                        <snip>

Quote:
> So, once again, what do you folks do for a shock cord mount in a LOC IV?

I don't consider the LOC IV a high power kit.  I don't think LOC does
either.  That said, it's only flaw is the short fin tabs.  Friction
fitting single use motors is common practice in HPR and far less of a
problem than it can be in model rockets due to the larger motor
diameters.  

If you're concerned about positive retention for use with reloads,
there are any number of cheap and easy schemes, including the Kaplow
Klip, that get the job done reliably.

The shock cord mount has been in successful use since it showed up in
the first of Ron's kits.  I've use it, the gorilla mount and various
other schemes and I've found it to be completely reliable up through
anything you could build for Level I HPR.

It's interesting that Estes has gone to plastic centering rings.
Interesting because LOC's ply rings are the best in the business and
NCR's were pretty sloppy.  I think you're looking at a bean counter
decision, not better engineering.


------------------------------
Gotta agrre with you man.....Plastic centering rings suck though.

 
 
 

LOC IV

Post by Jeff Gortatowsk » Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Hi Ted!
I am responding to both the group and you.

I'm telling you the LOC shock cord mount works. I use it on all my rockets from
A powered BT50 models up to and including my 2 pound 4inch Fat Boy and my 2 3/4
pound IBI which I just launched on an I161 to 3500 feet. For medium size
rockets, and even some larger ones, it just plain works. It's dead simple, and
it works. That's a good formula if you ask me.

As for the fins... if I were you:
A) I'd either cut new ones with TTMT tabs or
B) I'd cut slots in the centering rings and move the rings closer together so
the tabs fit in the slots or
C) I'd leave the aft ring off, drill small holes in the find tab and fillet with
epoxy along the tab-to-inner-body-wall as well as the normal outside fillets, or
D) Exchange it for something else.

I used a Forte with fin 'tabs' and the just kept 'hinging' off. I finally gave
up.
Given what I know now, I'd say B or C above should work well with C being the
most simple. Instructions? We don't need no stinking instruction! 8)

Pay Forward,
Jeff Gortatowsky

--
This message has been packed using modern automated machinery. Packed
by weight not volume, some settling of contents may have occurred during
shipment. "Trust but verify" - Ronald W. Regan on assembling a RMS.


NAR: 70988 Level I   Member: ROC and SCRA      TRA: 5678      IAR# 43

 
 
 

LOC IV

Post by Tam1 » Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:00:00


I had no problems with the LOC method of shock cord retention. Quite possibly,
it could outlive the rocket !!
However, if you wish a more positive mount, get a third centering ring, drill a
hole to mount an eyebolt and use that for the "forward ring"
Notch the other two c'rings that came with the kit for the fin tabs, use one to
capture the forward most tab, and one two capture the rear tab. (Dont forget to
put T nuts in the rear ring for your retention system.)

Good Luck

 
 
 

LOC IV

Post by steve bloo » Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

>  I just received a LOC IV and I must say I am a bit disappointed
>with, what I thought, would be my first "real" high power kit.
> Shock cord mounting is my biggest concern. NCR has that very nice
>Gorilla grip steel cable that anchors into the top centering ring.
>LOC has a length of nylon string that is masking taped to the side
>wall and epoxed over. Does anyone really do that? Do folks put in
>some kind of eyebolt instead?

The shock cord mount works fine.  It's stronger than the elastic when done
properly.  I went way high power with mine however and used a third
centering ring to secure both the eyebolt anchor and extra long 38mm motor
mount.  Internal filets and a small groove cut into the centering rings
holds the fins on well.  For the price, the LOC IV makes a fine high power
kit.  And it's big too.

Steve Bloom
Seattle area Rocketeer

 
 
 

LOC IV

Post by Ian » Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:00:00


First of all, there is a $20 difference. Second, read before you buy.. Its
recommened to use up to mid power engines.
The plywood centering rings LOC has are very strong. The shock coord mount
does work, and it isnt wimpy. Anyways you are only using F-G engines. If you
want more positive rentention, just epoxy a little coupler type device
<estes engine block thing> and use screws as motor retention.
NCR rockets are easier (except for the modelling ones) so thats why you have
places to align the fins, for loc you eyeball them, it isnt much harder
either way you go at it.
And also they are just putting 28.5mm mounts which makes a much higher
success of their motors and it would void the warranty if you modified it to
a 29mm mount for 29mm single use. Which i think is pretty lame of them to do
that. The darkstar motors arent bad but it would be nice to try something
other than a F62(?)-4/6 motor.
Quote:

>  I just received a LOC IV and I must say I am a bit disappointed
>with, what I thought, would be my first "real" high power kit.
>I have built two Estes NCR kits with a third waiting, and they
>seem to me to be much better kits. NRC kits have the full size
>tab fins that reach all the way to the motor tube while the LOC
>tabs extend barely inside the body tube.
> NCR centering rings are molded plastic (three of them) with
>slots to align the fins. LOC has two plywood rings with no slots.
>Included parachutes are a draw as are the nosecones although the LOC
>seems a bit thicker.
> Shock cord mounting is my biggest concern. NCR has that very nice
>Gorilla grip steel cable that anchors into the top centering ring.
>LOC has a length of nylon string that is masking taped to the side
>wall and epoxed over. Does anyone really do that? Do folks put in
>some kind of eyebolt instead?
> Last, the motor mount. Estes has the plastic ring to lock in their
>Dark Star engine. Of course I don't think any other engine will fit
>because of that design. But LOC has nothing and relies on a friction
>fit (I hate friction fits). I plan on installing the PVC motor mount
>detailed in last months SpRocketry.
>  Since I hear a lot of "nose thumbing" at anything with "Estes" on it,
>I expected to see a big step up in other companies kits. In this
>case I think my NCR, if I could figure out how to mount the motor, could
>handle anything this LOC could.
> So, once again, what do you folks do for a shock cord mount in a LOC IV?

>--
>        +----------__(')__----------------------------+
>        |    (')-//__l|l__\\                          |
>        |       \O_\/lol\/_O__  Ted Mahler  NAR 18184 |
>        |       /O`. [ ]  ;O_L\             N5ZYO     |
>        |      _\__\_[ ]_/__/_/                       |

>        |    /_\l___|_H_|___|/_\                      |
>        |   /       '-H-`       \                     |
>        +-~~~--------~'~--------~~~-------------------+

 
 
 

LOC IV

Post by The Silent Observe » Thu, 20 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> Ted  The UMRS built with pvc parts works great with the single use F engines
> that I have been using but if you want to use anything larger I would suggest
> using some small angle brackets and small screws to anchor it to the bottom
> centering ring, I found this out the hard way on a failed cert 1
> flight(stripped chute, stupid mistake on my part), also get plenty of extra
> caps for this system if you use higher motors than an F(you will severly burn
> the cap with larger engines), and instead of a high priced o-ring I use a
> *** washer out of a garden hose, less than $1 a pack of 10 & works great
> just enlarge the center hole with a hobby knife.

As designer of the UMRS, I'm a little concerned by your reports of
burning of the cap.  I've got one on my Spike that's been flown in
excess of fif*** times on motors from D12 to G35 Econojet, and shows
very little heat damage -- there's some blackening of the plastic
surface on the inner edge of the hole, and that's it.

The cap for my Thug did suffer some reshaping of the hole contour from
an H128, but has survived G80 and G64 flights without further effect.

Could yours have too small a center hole?  I drill mine to match the
AR-2050 centering ring I use as a bearing block...

--
 WARNING!!  This area has been designated an official DOPE FREE ZONE!!

      If you're going to be a dope, please do it somewhere else!

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer           NAR # 70141-SR Insured
Rocket Pages             http://www.FoundCollection.com/

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

 
 
 

LOC IV

Post by Ted Mahle » Thu, 20 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
> mount.  Internal filets and a small groove cut into the centering rings
>holds the fins on well.  For the price, the LOC IV makes a fine high power
>kit.  And it's big too.
>Steve Bloom
>Seattle area Rocketeer

> And also they are just putting 28.5mm mounts which makes a much higher
> success of their motors and it would void the warranty if you modified it to
> a 29mm mount for 29mm single use. Which i think is pretty lame of them to do
> that. The darkstar motors arent bad but it would be nice to try something
> other than a F62(?)-4/6 motor.

  Okay, how about a little clearification here,,
 Steve, describe the "small groove" you used. Those fins don't stick up on
the inside much! Is this a groove running lengthwise on that small bit
of wood that does protrude inside the body tube?

 Ian,
  I am really confused, which rocket are you talking about that has a
28.5mm mount? I want to use an H128 RMS in the LOC IV. Is that going to work?

--
        +----------__(')__----------------------------+
        |    (')-//__l|l__\\                          |
        |       \O_\/lol\/_O__  Ted Mahler  NAR 18184 |
        |       /O`. [ ]  ;O_L\             N5ZYO     |
        |      _\__\_[ ]_/__/_/                       |

        |    /_\l___|_H_|___|/_\                      |
        |   /       '-H-`       \                     |
        +-~~~--------~'~--------~~~-------------------+

 
 
 

LOC IV

Post by Ted Mahle » Thu, 20 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> Ted  The UMRS built with pvc parts works great with the single use F engines
> that I have been using but if you want to use anything larger I would suggest
> using some small angle brackets and small screws to anchor it to the bottom
> centering ring, I found this out the hard way on a failed cert 1
> flight(stripped chute, stupid mistake on my part), also get plenty of extra
> caps for this system if you use higher motors than an F(you will severly burn
> the cap with larger engines), and instead of a high priced o-ring I use a
> *** washer out of a garden hose, less than $1 a pack of 10 & works great
> just enlarge the center hole with a hobby knife.
> Dale B.

   This does not sound like the UMRS I am talking about. What high priced
O-ring? It uses a cardboard 2050 ring. Also, I haven't built it yet, but
it looks like the RMS nozzle will actually protrude outside of the cap.
 Are you talking about the system described in the last issue of SpRocketry?
  So far my only problem with the UMRS was not being able to find a PVC
***. I found an adapter that had threads on one end and it looks like
it will work.

                               Ted Mahler

 
 
 

LOC IV

Post by Boeing Computo » Thu, 20 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> > mount.  Internal filets and a small groove cut into the centering rings
> >holds the fins on well.  For the price, the LOC IV makes a fine high power
> >kit.  And it's big too.

> >Steve Bloom
> >Seattle area Rocketeer

>   Okay, how about a little clearification here,,
>  Steve, describe the "small groove" you used. Those fins don't stick up on
> the inside much! Is this a groove running lengthwise on that small bit
> of wood that does protrude inside the body tube?

Ok, here goes.  The groove is better described as a notch in the
centering rings.  The centering rings are placed in the rocket body at
the top and bottom of the fin slots.  In order to insert the fins all
the way in, the CR's need to be notched.  If you were to look into the
rocket through the fin slot, you would see the top and bottom CR at the
very top and bottom of the slot.  The notch allows the fin to be
captured by the centering ring, holding the part that is inside the
rocket from any sideways movement.

It's late, if this isn't clear I'll try again tomorrow, e-mail me at
home.

Steve Bloom
Seattle Area Rocketeer