Effects of getting a LEUP...

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by kimba.. » Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:24:13



I have just recieved an application to get a LEUP.  I live in CA, if that
makes any difference to the question I am asking.  Here is the question...
Durring the process or there after recieving a LEUP will I have government
inspectors comming to my house for periodic inspections?

I don't know if I want them snooping around my house.  One of my concerns is
that I have been making my own motors (most of which are less than the 62.5
grams mentioned on this newsgroup).  The larger ones I have used up and will
discontinue making if it is required.  But at the same time I have been
testing up to D size motors in my garage in a 6ft x 4 x 4 ft steel test cell
I built to contain the exhaust gas and contain any CATO event.  It works
great.  But if the ATF people saw it I am affraid it would not be a good
thing.  This is why I am hesetant to have them come and inspect my home.  If
I go through with the LEUP will I need to get rid of this test cell and
suspend motor making?

Thanks for the help,
KT

 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by kimba.. » Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:58:50


It's me again.  I guess I should have used a spell checker for the 1st post.
 Oh well.

A clarification to the original question.  I am applying for just the LEUP.
No storage addendum.  This might affect the answer about making and testing
motors.  I live in a community that has outlawed fire works of any kind
including sparklers.  So having homemade motors in my garage might be a
problem and since getting permission from the local fire department in order
to get a storage addendum to my LEUP is pretty much out of the question
where I live.  So I will be just getting the LEUP with out storage.  What a
mess to live in good old CA.

KT

 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by Dave » Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:47:02


Quote:

>   So I will be just getting the LEUP with out storage.  What a
> mess to live in good old CA.

There is no such thing as a LEUP without storage.  The BATFE will
require you to have 'contingency' storage - someplace to go with any
motor(s) you may have left over after a launch or otherwise that remain
in your possession.  You will need to arrange with *someone*, either
another LEUP holder or perhap the vendor you use to store for you.
 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by kimba.. » Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:59:01


Ok,

the question is still are they going to come and inspect initially or on a
periodic basis?

KT

 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by Brian Elfer » Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:47:11


Quote:

>Ok,
>the question is still are they going to come and inspect initially or on a
>periodic basis?

They generally only do inspections of the storage.  I am doing storage for
myself and two others.  The last guy who had to renew his LEUP, the ATF
agent came to my house to check out the storage.  They never visited his
house as they have no reason to.

The ATF is supposed to do at least one "suprise" compliance inspection
during each three year license period, but I haven't seen an agent since
my last renewal.  In my case, I'm usually not home during the hours when
the ATF would come by, so they show up and then have to call to schedule
the compliance inspection.

This reminds that my LEUP expires this fall and I better start the renewal
process.

Brian Elfert

 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by defaul » Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:26:08


Quote:

> I have just recieved an application to get a LEUP.  I live in CA, if that
> makes any difference to the question I am asking.  Here is the question...
> Durring the process or there after recieving a LEUP will I have government
> inspectors comming to my house for periodic inspections?

As a documented user of low explosives, your blip on their radar will
be larger than the rest of the community. By signing their papers, you
give them permission to investigate you and your premises if they have
a reason. The "reason" they come up with can be totally arbitrary and
completely up to them. (Remember, they think rocket motor propellant
explodes!)

But, probably nuthin' bad will happen...

steve

 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by Phil Stei » Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:35:00


Quote:

>I have just recieved an application to get a LEUP.  I live in CA, if that
>makes any difference to the question I am asking.  Here is the question...
>Durring the process or there after recieving a LEUP will I have government
>inspectors comming to my house for periodic inspections?

>I don't know if I want them snooping around my house.  One of my concerns is
>that I have been making my own motors (most of which are less than the 62.5
>grams mentioned on this newsgroup).  The larger ones I have used up and will
>discontinue making if it is required.  But at the same time I have been
>testing up to D size motors in my garage in a 6ft x 4 x 4 ft steel test cell
>I built to contain the exhaust gas and contain any CATO event.  It works
>great.  But if the ATF people saw it I am affraid it would not be a good
>thing.  This is why I am hesetant to have them come and inspect my home.  If
>I go through with the LEUP will I need to get rid of this test cell and
>suspend motor making?

>Thanks for the help,
>KT

If you have a LEUP, you are subject to periodic inspections.  I had
one when I initially got my LEUP, one when I renewed it and one right
after 9/11.  My stuff is in an attached garage.  They did not go
looking around in the house.  Home made propellant does not require a
LEUP so I wouldn't be concerned about it but I also wouldn't leave it
out in front of their face either.  That's a hefty test stand for a D.
I doubt if any of the inspectors I had would know what it was but
there again, I wouldn't stick it in his face.  A plastic tapr will
keep it clean, dry & out of site.

Phil

 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by Phil Stei » Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:36:10


Quote:

>It's me again.  I guess I should have used a spell checker for the 1st post.
> Oh well.

>A clarification to the original question.  I am applying for just the LEUP.
>No storage addendum.  This might affect the answer about making and testing
>motors.  I live in a community that has outlawed fire works of any kind
>including sparklers.  So having homemade motors in my garage might be a
>problem and since getting permission from the local fire department in order
>to get a storage addendum to my LEUP is pretty much out of the question
>where I live.  So I will be just getting the LEUP with out storage.  What a
>mess to live in good old CA.

>KT

If you local govt will not let you have a permit, neither will ATF.

Phil

 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by Brian Elfer » Wed, 16 Aug 2006 02:06:40


Quote:

>If you have a LEUP, you are subject to periodic inspections.  I had
>one when I initially got my LEUP, one when I renewed it and one right
>after 9/11.  My stuff is in an attached garage.  They did not go

He isn't planning to have his own storage so the ATF will likely never
even visit his location.  

In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine
and where the magazine will be.  They don't go into your house and they
don't poke around in your garage either.  Their main concerns are that no
gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine.

Brian Elfert

 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by Bob Kapl » Wed, 16 Aug 2006 02:40:47


Quote:

> In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine
> and where the magazine will be.  They don't go into your house and they
> don't poke around in your garage either.  Their main concerns are that no
> gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine.

Who has a garage with no gasoline in it? Got only electric cars out where
you live?

--
  Bob Kaplow   NAR # 18L   >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle:      http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
    www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org

        S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver!

 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by Brian Elfer » Wed, 16 Aug 2006 03:01:39


Quote:


>> In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine
>> and where the magazine will be.  They don't go into your house and they
>> don't poke around in your garage either.  Their main concerns are that no
>> gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine.
>Who has a garage with no gasoline in it? Got only electric cars out where
>you live?

The ATF just wants to be sure you don't have a gas can on the same shelf
as the magazine or something like that.  Gas cans on the other side of
the garage are okay.  They are not concerned about where cars park.

It makes no sense as the car is full of gasoline that is more explosive
than any APCP motor.

Brian Elfert

 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by defaul » Wed, 16 Aug 2006 03:20:20


Quote:

> In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine
> and where the magazine will be.  They don't go into your house and they
> don't poke around in your garage either.  Their main concerns are that no
> gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine.

> Brian Elfert

Really?  What part of the orange book describes these requirements?
 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by Phil Stei » Wed, 16 Aug 2006 03:43:36




Quote:

>>If you have a LEUP, you are subject to periodic inspections.  I had
>>one when I initially got my LEUP, one when I renewed it and one right
>>after 9/11.  My stuff is in an attached garage.  They did not go

Why are you telling me this -

Quote:
>He isn't planning to have his own storage so the ATF will likely never
>even visit his location.  

And you pretty much repeat what I said?  Am I missing something.  We
are both answering the question he asked.

Quote:
>In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine
>and where the magazine will be.  They don't go into your house and they
>don't poke around in your garage either.  Their main concerns are that no
>gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine.

>Brian Elfert

As seemingly relevent as it is, I've never been asked to move
flamables away from my magazine.

Phil

 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by Phil Stei » Wed, 16 Aug 2006 03:47:29




Quote:


>>> In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine
>>> and where the magazine will be.  They don't go into your house and they
>>> don't poke around in your garage either.  Their main concerns are that no
>>> gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine.

>>Who has a garage with no gasoline in it? Got only electric cars out where
>>you live?

>The ATF just wants to be sure you don't have a gas can on the same shelf
>as the magazine or something like that.  Gas cans on the other side of
>the garage are okay.  They are not concerned about where cars park.

>It makes no sense as the car is full of gasoline that is more explosive
>than any APCP motor.

>Brian Elfert

You are confusing "The ATF" with the individulal inspectors that came
to visit.  Gasoline has never been an issue with the individual
inspectors that visited me.  It would not surprise me if a different
one came out the next time and did ask about it.

Phil

 
 
 

Effects of getting a LEUP...

Post by David Bacqu » Wed, 16 Aug 2006 07:13:13



Quote:
>>In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine
>>and where the magazine will be.  They don't go into your house and they
>>don't poke around in your garage either.  Their main concerns are that no
>>gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine.

>>Brian Elfert

> As seemingly relevent as it is, I've never been asked to move
> flamables away from my magazine.

> Phil

I was told that since I had flammables (a partial gallon each of acetone and
mineral spirits and some spray paint) and a gas hot water heater in my
garage, I would be required to install a power ventilation system and move
the flammables to another area of the garage.  I said I'd never seen that in
the requirements and was told that putting in a vent would be easy compared
to getting a permit if I challenged her recommendation.

So I installed a power ventilation system.

Didn't much matter though, the Houston Fire Marshall refused to allow it.
Said I needed a Houston Explosives Permit.  Houston doesn't (didn't?)
differentiate between high and low explosives.  I had to have a dynamite
rated storage facility 75' away from any occupied building.  He went on to
tell me that no one would ever come looking for my rocket motors and told me
to just "do what ever you want to do illegally.  Leave us the hell alone and
we won't bother you!"  Direct quote.

Never did get my permit.  But I did move my flammables and install power
ventilation.

Dave