Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Post by cat » Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:02:04



Hello All,

Sorry for the dumb question, but at the last launch I left behind a box with
4 igniters that came with the Cesaroni pro38 reloads. I was told not to use
a "HOT" igniter to replace the lost ones, what would you recommend as a
replacement e-match? I do not have an ATFE LTC so I'm stuck with few
options, I however use nichrome/bp igniters for just about everything else
they work with aerotech would they be ok? How about hotshot? Besides the
starter grain, why would a pro-38 be any different then any other APCP
reload?

-cat

 
 
 

Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Post by Phil Stei » Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:34:26




Quote:
>Hello All,

>Sorry for the dumb question, but at the last launch I left behind a box with
>4 igniters that came with the Cesaroni pro38 reloads. I was told not to use
>a "HOT" igniter to replace the lost ones, what would you recommend as a
>replacement e-match? I do not have an ATFE LTC so I'm stuck with few
>options, I however use nichrome/bp igniters for just about everything else
>they work with aerotech would they be ok? How about hotshot? Besides the
>starter grain, why would a pro-38 be any different then any other APCP
>reload?

>-cat

Where are you?

 
 
 

Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Post by Jerry Irvin » Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:35:46




Quote:
> Besides the
> starter grain, why would a pro-38 be any different then any other APCP
> reload?

The starter grain itself makes it considerably different from most APCP
motors. It is ignited much like a BP motor so almost any igniter should
work. Ie Solar on extended leads.

What they recommend may vary.

What they do not want you to do is use a dipped igniter or one boosted
with pyrogen or propellant.

Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA

Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late)
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

 
 
 

Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Post by Niall Oswal » Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:38:03



Quote:
> Hello All,

> Sorry for the dumb question, but at the last launch I left behind a box
> with
> 4 igniters that came with the Cesaroni pro38 reloads. I was told not to
> use
> a "HOT" igniter to replace the lost ones, what would you recommend as a
> replacement e-match? I do not have an ATFE LTC so I'm stuck with few
> options, I however use nichrome/bp igniters for just about everything else
> they work with aerotech would they be ok? How about hotshot? Besides the
> starter grain, why would a pro-38 be any different then any other APCP
> reload?

> -cat

The Pro38 igniter is an Oxral e-match, so assumedly any igniter which
provides enough energy to initiate the BP starter pellet (and won't cause
nozzle blockage) would work. Not sure quite how the regulation works for
you, but a standard e-match (Daveyfire/Oxral) would seem to be an
appropriate direct replacement.

The only difference I can think of (top of the head) is that Pro38 uses a
thermoplastic-based fuel rather than HTPB based. Not sure how that would
affect ignitor choice.

The only reference I have seen to using non-standard igniters with Pro38/54
motors was here:

http://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/descon14/prometheus.html

From what I've heard, the only times people have had Pro38/54's fail to
ignite (over here at least) is when the e-match hasn't been in contact with
the starter pellet. As such I would assume that any igniter which delivers
as much energy as the original e-match would light the starter grain and
thus the motor.

Just my thoughts....

--
Niall Oswald
================================
http://www.bits.bris.ac.uk/niall
UKRA 1345
EARS 1151
MARS

 
 
 

Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Post by David Weinshenke » Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:37:31


Quote:

> Hello All,

> Sorry for the dumb question, but at the last launch I left behind a box with
> 4 igniters that came with the Cesaroni pro38 reloads. I was told not to use
> a "HOT" igniter to replace the lost ones, what would you recommend as a
> replacement e-match? I do not have an ATFE LTC so I'm stuck with few
> options, I however use nichrome/bp igniters for just about everything else
> they work with aerotech would they be ok? How about hotshot? Besides the
> starter grain, why would a pro-38 be any different then any other APCP
> reload?

> -cat

The igniters I've seen included with Pro38's appear to be identical to the
standard (DaveyFire?) e-matches that BlackSky sells under the "HiRMI" brand.

-dave w

 
 
 

Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Post by L& » Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:54:35


Not all the CTI igniters are the same. You didn't say which reloads you had.
Most have the standard Oxrail/Davyfire though.

Your best bet is to ask CTI. Send them an email and list which reloads you
have so they can recommend an appropriate igniter. If Hot Shots are
available to you ask if they would be okay to use as a replacement.

I can tell you that the igniter that came with my 5 grain I540 was not a
standard igniter.

Layne Rossi
CAR S767 L3


Quote:

>> Hello All,

>> Sorry for the dumb question, but at the last launch I left behind a box
>> with
>> 4 igniters that came with the Cesaroni pro38 reloads. I was told not to
>> use
>> a "HOT" igniter to replace the lost ones, what would you recommend as a
>> replacement e-match? I do not have an ATFE LTC so I'm stuck with few
>> options, I however use nichrome/bp igniters for just about everything
>> else
>> they work with aerotech would they be ok? How about hotshot? Besides the
>> starter grain, why would a pro-38 be any different then any other APCP
>> reload?

>> -cat

> The igniters I've seen included with Pro38's appear to be identical to the
> standard (DaveyFire?) e-matches that BlackSky sells under the "HiRMI"
> brand.

> -dave w

 
 
 

Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Post by Mike Dennet » Thu, 03 Mar 2005 00:31:50


Cat -

Here's the scoop:

You could use an aftermarket igniter with the Pro38's, as long as you are
diligent about making sure it is all the way up the core and in contact with
or in very close proximity to the igniter pellet. But don't use something
with 5 grams of thermonuclear goo on it, you won't change a thing about how
quickly the motor ignites. Just use something that will ignite the igniter
pellet, and that doesn't take much - your description of a nichrome-BP
igniter sounds suitable.

The reason we tell people not to use aftermarket igniters is as follows:

(1) It is unnecessary - properly installed, the supplied e-match will light
the igniter pellet every time.

(2) The main reason:   Pyrogen dipped igniters will ignite the propellant
directly, the e-matches will not. Using an igniter with pyrogen overdip can
(and has) caused the occasional mid-port ignition and subsequent disaster.
One would think that with that easily ignited pellet at the top of the core,
that even if you accidentally touched off the propellant lower down the core
the darn thing would still go and the motor would function nominally. This
is true most of the time, however, there have been notable exceptions.
Stagnated cold gas in the core above the ignition event is far more stubborn
at allowing fire transfer than you might think - it is a far better
insulator than you'd suspect.

One fellow sent us the remains of a 6G casing and reload parts, with an odd
description of the event. What we recieved was the upper 2/3 of the casing,
a hardened puddle of aluminum slag,  and the remains of the upper part of
the reload inert bits. Hmmm we thought... how did this happen. As he
decribed it, the button was pushed, there was a pop from the ignitor, then
nothing more than a road flare flame from the rear of the motor, that lasted
something like 1-1-/2 minutes.  Eventually molten aluminum was seen to be
dripping from the rear of the motor..

We asked the usual questions, did you get the igniter all the way up the
core, did you use the supplied igniter, etc etc. Yes to all.

Baffled, I scratched my head overnight on the issue, wondering if the nozzle
had ejected at ignition, or if there was a blind drilled grain lower down,
or had we shipped a whole batch of propellant missing most of the oxidizer
(not likely), or what. But the problem was, as he described it the nozzle
did not blow out, and he had said he used the stock igniter which I knew, or
"knew" let's say from experience, would not ignitie the propellant directly.
I came to the conclusion that it must have suffered a mid to lower port
ignition somehow, sothought I that maybe the matches will on occasion ignite
the propellant directly. It is not unheard of that the match might snag
between grains and cause a misfire, it has happened a few times.

So, armed with some e-matches, a couple of 6G cases and J330 reloads I went
out to the test stand to play. I tried getting a midport igniton with the
stock e-match. Nothing, and in fact I have never successfully ignited Pro38
standard propellant directly with an e-match.

Next step - I rigged a pyrogen igniter using an Oxral match and about two
inches of double over igniter cord, and put this about 2" into the core.

Bingo!

A 2 minute road flare, and after about a minute the nozzle just sort of fell
out, and the bottom couple of inches of the casing melted away into a puddle
of aluminum. The motor never even came close to reaching operating pressure,
I doubt it would even have moved under its own power lying sideways on the
asphalt. The reamins were hard to tell apart from those sent to us by our
customer.

So, a quick email to the customer to report our findings. AHA! He confessed,
after thinking about it, that he had indeed used an aftermarket igniter, and
the conclusion was that it must have snagged in the core and felt like it
was all the way up.

We all laughed about this, because on the very positive side we had learned
something important from the event.

Now, all that said, in the installation instructions for the Oxral igniters
(now supplied with all Pro38 2G and larger reloads) I describe cutting off a
short piece of the red plastic tube used to shunt the bare leads, and
sliding this over the match head. This single feature increases igntion
reliabilty hugely - without the sleeve the output from the ematch goes in
all directions except straight back of course. Problem is, we want that
output to all go forwards towards the igniter pellet. The plastic sleeve
accomplishes this - I did witness paaper tests to prove the idea, plus some
hurried field testing when someone had problems with a Pro54 J. So do
yourselves a favor and don't skip this step - it is described on the little
paper instruction sheet accompanying the igniter. If this is done as
described, the match will ignite the propellant reliably even when separated
by a short standoff distance. But don't intentionally cause there to be a
standoff distance - get that igniter right up to the top.

FYI, we used to supply Daveyfire M28F's with all motors. Now, we only supply
them with the Pro38 1G G reloads, as they have nozzle throats too small for
the Oxral. Everything else gets Oxrals. These are the only two types of
igniters we provide.

Mike Dennett
Cesaroni Technology Incorporated


Quote:
> Hello All,

> Sorry for the dumb question, but at the last launch I left behind a box
with
> 4 igniters that came with the Cesaroni pro38 reloads. I was told not to
use
> a "HOT" igniter to replace the lost ones, what would you recommend as a
> replacement e-match? I do not have an ATFE LTC so I'm stuck with few
> options, I however use nichrome/bp igniters for just about everything else
> they work with aerotech would they be ok? How about hotshot? Besides the
> starter grain, why would a pro-38 be any different then any other APCP
> reload?

> -cat

 
 
 

Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Post by Dwayne Surdu-Mille » Thu, 03 Mar 2005 05:23:27


Quote:

> Cat -

> Here's the scoop:

<snip>
---------------------------------------

You've posted a valuable gem, Mike.

Thank you,

Dwayne Surdu-Miller
SAROS #1

 
 
 

Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Post by Doug Sam » Thu, 03 Mar 2005 06:31:37



I agree with Alex, Mike.  This was a great post!  I hope you put it up
on the Pro38 site.

Doug

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 
 
 

Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Post by Phil Stei » Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:09:54


On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:23:27 -0600, Dwayne Surdu-Miller

Quote:


>> Cat -

>> Here's the scoop:
><snip>
>---------------------------------------

>You've posted a valuable gem, Mike.

>Thank you,

>Dwayne Surdu-Miller
>SAROS #1

Yep.  That's what I was talking about when I mentioned motor makers
that try to provide a service.
 
 
 

Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Post by Jerry Irvin » Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:20:33




Quote:
> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:23:27 -0600, Dwayne Surdu-Miller


> >> Cat -

> >> Here's the scoop:
> ><snip>
> >---------------------------------------

> >You've posted a valuable gem, Mike.

> >Thank you,

> >Dwayne Surdu-Miller
> >SAROS #1

> Yep.  That's what I was talking about when I mentioned motor makers
> that try to provide a service.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA

Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration. (too late)
Produce then publish.  http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

 
 
 

Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Post by cat » Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:02:59


Thanks Mike for a very informitive post!
This is one of the reasons i always recomend cesaroni to friends.
Great company, great suport, great product! if i say great one more time do
i get a free shirt :)

-cat

 
 
 

Cesaroni Igniter Replacement

Post by cat » Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:04:00


Thanks to everyone who helped solve this problem, i'll use a light bp
igniter replacement.