First LMR:Initiator or starter set & other questions from brand new BAR

First LMR:Initiator or starter set & other questions from brand new BAR

Post by Jason Creag » Sat, 02 May 1998 04:00:00



Hi everyone!

        OK, I'll admit it.  The BAR bug bit me and sunk its teeth in deep.
Two weeks ago, my wife and I were at Sams Wholesale Club...waaayyy back in
the corner where the damaged items and the toys are.  Lo, and behold, a
Quest Renegade RTF Starter kit display called out my name.  It was pretty
slick looking.  Rocket, launch pad, launcher, three engines...all for just
a penny under $10.  Check out the Sams near you to see if they have them!

        After tomorrow's visit, we will have purchased FIVE sets:  Two for
me (when you can get a whole other kit for $5 more than just the engines,
why NOT?), one for my nephew's birthday, and two to donate at Christmas
time to make some children's eyes light up and maybe plant a bug that will
last for years.  Of course, there will probably be a couple of B and C
motors and an instruction sheet thrown in for good measure, too.

        Anyway.... The memory of building my Estes Fireaero completely on
my own and having it fly perfectly rushed back to me.  So now, I have most
of the R.M.R FAQ printed out, Magnum's pricelist, $16 worth of catalogs,
and the March High Power Rocketry.  I'm hoping that this information
overload will burn out the "must buy big rocket" circuit that was turned on
in my brain, but the outlook for that isn't good.  :)

        After spending many hours browsing the web and figuring out basic
terms, I came across www.discountrocketry.com and saw a photo of the
Aerotech Initiator Starter Kit.  Actually seeing a photo was a big help and
it looks like a nice kit.  It looks like a good first LMR and from the
posts to r.m.r. about it, I think it would be a wise investment.

        If I could impose upon the knowledge of the group, I would
sincerely appreciate some advice from those who have been here, done this,
and are now on to bigger and better things (which is where I'd like to be).

        #1  I get the impression that this kit builds fairly easily.  I'm
not biting off more than I can chew, am I?  The Fireaero's fins went on
perfectly without the benefit of slots in the tube, so I'm confident I
could attach these.  :)  My work schedule is 60 hours a week, plus two
hours drive time each day, so I don't have a lot of time to spend on a
long build time kit.

        #2  Should I get the kit or the rocket and RMS engine set and build my
own pad and launch control?  If the later, can someone send me the circuit
that you use for the continuity check?  

        #3  AeroTech is based in Las Vegas, and I might be moving there, so I'm
kind of partial to them.  However, if anyone has any other kit suggestions,
I'm all ears!

        #4  AeroTech's Motor Matrix lists up to a G class engine and a
possible altitude of 2,000 feet.  The RMS 29 40-120 casing is about 5"
long.  Are the reload grains all the same physical size but pack different
chemical "whallops"?  Is the power difference due to a different sized hole
in the middle?  (Thanks to the MotorTutor software for the knowledge
booster there!)  The kit comes with an E and F White Lightning
reloads.  Since no hobby shop around here even knew what a reload was, what
variety of reloads should I order with the kit?  Should I even mess with
buying a G?  My grandma has 40 acres, 32 of which are fields.  Is this big
enough for that kind of flight or is that a HP launch site thing?

        #5  Anyone around Springfield, Missouri?  St. Louis and Tulsa
aren't exactly close.  :(

        Thanks for letting me bug you all!  I really appreciate the help.

Jason

 
 
 

First LMR:Initiator or starter set & other questions from brand new BAR

Post by Mike Form » Sat, 02 May 1998 04:00:00



{snip BAR story}

Quote:
>         #1  I get the impression that this kit builds fairly easily.  I'm
> not biting off more than I can chew, am I?  The Fireaero's fins went on
> perfectly without the benefit of slots in the tube, so I'm confident I
> could attach these.  :)  My work schedule is 60 hours a week, plus two
> hours drive time each day, so I don't have a lot of time to spend on a
> long build time kit.

I was amazed at how easy the Initiator was to construct. Also, if all
you've built in the past is typical Estes stuff, you'll be amazed at the
engineering of the AT kits.

Quote:
>         #2  Should I get the kit or the rocket and RMS engine set and build my
> own pad and launch control?  If the later, can someone send me the circuit
> that you use for the continuity check?  

The best deal is the starter set with the RMS, IMHO. I've modified some
small rods to fit the Mantis pad, and I've removed the Aerotek clip and
replaced it with alligator clips. I fly ALL my stuff, big and small with
it. The launch controller is excellent, and with a high-amp gel-cell you'll
have a nice, portable, 12volt system that'll fire off anything from Estes
ignitors to copperheads.

Quote:
>         #3  AeroTech is based in Las Vegas, and I might be moving there,
so I'm
> kind of partial to them.  However, if anyone has any other kit suggestions,
> I'm all ears!

PML makes great mid and high power stuff, as does LOC, but I think the
Initiator starter set is your best bet for getting started. I'd have a heck
of a time flying my other stuff if I didn't have the Mantis pad and
controller.

Quote:
>         #4  AeroTech's Motor Matrix lists up to a G class engine and a
> possible altitude of 2,000 feet.  The RMS 29 40-120 casing is about 5"
> long.  Are the reload grains all the same physical size but pack different
> chemical "whallops"?  Is the power difference due to a different sized hole
> in the middle?  (Thanks to the MotorTutor software for the knowledge
> booster there!)  The kit comes with an E and F White Lightning
> reloads.  Since no hobby shop around here even knew what a reload was, what
> variety of reloads should I order with the kit?  Should I even mess with
> buying a G?  My grandma has 40 acres, 32 of which are fields.  Is this big
> enough for that kind of flight or is that a HP launch site thing?

The propellent grains are different sizes. They use spacers to keep the
short propellant grains in place. Also, the propellant is made in differnet
mixtures with different burn properties.

The fields which you describe are adequate. I've flown at my father's place
and stayed with in the 10 acre plot in which we intended. It all depends on
the winds, and where on the acreage you set the pad. If the wind's from the
south, then set up toward the southern part of the property. Send up one of
those small RTF kits first to see how the winds are above ground level and
re-position your pads if necessary, the have at it!

Just keep looking and you'll find the reloads. I couldn't find anything
here in Topeka, but I occasionally travel through Omaha. I found a Hobby
Town there that carries all kinds of reloads up to G. I just take a hundred
extra bucks everytime I go through and stock up!

Quote:
>         #5  Anyone around Springfield, Missouri?  St. Louis and Tulsa
> aren't exactly close.  :(

I'm sure you'll find someone down there. If not, you're certianly welcome
to come over to Argonia (KS) and fly with us KLOUDBusters! See
http://kloudbusters.org for more info.

Good luck, Jason, and have fun!

Mike

--
Mike Forman                                                  NetWorks
Internet Services Manager/Midwest                       616 Jefferson  

913-295-5648                                http://www.cjnetworks.com
"May you never love in vain, and in my heart you will remain... forever
young, forever young" -- Bob Dylan

 
 
 

First LMR:Initiator or starter set & other questions from brand new BAR

Post by Ted Cochr » Sat, 02 May 1998 04:00:00



Quote:

>Hi everyone!

>        OK, I'll admit it.  The BAR bug bit me and sunk its teeth in deep.

Welcome!

Quote:
>   ...So now, I have most
>of the R.M.R FAQ printed out, Magnum's pricelist, $16 worth of catalogs,
>and the March High Power Rocketry.  

Doing the research is the best way to figure out what your interests really are.

Quote:
>I'm hoping that this information
>overload will burn out the "must buy big rocket" circuit that was turned on
>in my brain, but the outlook for that isn't good.  :)

You got that right.

Quote:
>...Aerotech Initiator Starter Kit.

Easier to build than even many Estes rockets (bigger stronger parts,
simpler construction).  Use yellow glue (or epoxy, but the general feeling
here is that epoxy for wood-wood or wood-cardboard isn't any stronger than
yellow glue unless you include fiberglass, and that's a rocket or two away
for you still).

You might want to build some of the Estes kits first, or in addition, as
well.  With your work schedule, kit building time is at a premium, so
start with easy stuff like Maniac. You could also try a variety of
rockets.  Maybe the following set, which you can build in one afternoon if
you work them in parallel:  Tornado, Mongoose, Maniac, Heliocopter. Having
a couple of different kits makes the launches more fun.

Quote:
>  Should I get the kit or the rocket and RMS engine set and build my
>own pad and launch control?  If the later, can someone send me the circuit
>that you use for the continuity check?  

Initiator starter set is a good deal, esp since you could take a weekend
just building launch equipment.  Depending on how much you're willing to
spend, you might also want to consider single use engines, which cost a
bit more per flight (assuming you don't lose the RMS casing, in which case
the single use are cheaper :-) . The turnaround time on launches using
single use engines is much faster.

Quote:

>  if anyone has any other kit suggestions,
>I'm all ears!

I'd start simple, with long 3FNC (3 fins and a nose cone) models instead
of squat ones, or lots of transitions, or cluster engines.

Quote:
> Since no hobby shop around here even knew what a reload was, what
>variety of reloads should I order with the kit?  Should I even mess with
>buying a G?

Es and Fs are fine; Gs sooner or later.  If you don't have a hobby shop in
the area, there are a bunch of reliable mail order places in the faq.  If
you use Magnum, you can get an official 1998 RMR T-shirt! [end plug]

Quote:
> My grandma has 40 acres, 32 of which are fields.  Is this big
>enough for that kind of flight or is that a HP launch site thing?

Should be fine. The main thing isn't so much the size of the rocket but
the combination of altitude and recovery method.  You can lose an Estes
RTF on a big chute if it catches a thermal, but it is almost impossible to
lose a four inch dia, 6 foot rocket on a G.

Have fun, and be safe!

--tc

My opinions only.

 
 
 

First LMR:Initiator or starter set & other questions from brand new BAR

Post by Ed Hacke » Sun, 03 May 1998 04:00:00



Quote:

>         #1  I get the impression that this kit builds fairly easily.  I'm
> not biting off more than I can chew, am I?  

It's a very easy rocket to build.  You should have no problem putting it
together in an evening.  Others have suggested epoxy.  That's overkill.
Build it exactly as the directions say, using medium viscosity CA
liberally.  The Initiator was designed before the reloadable motors came
out and being somewhat short, it's tail heavy.  Adding the extra weight of
epoxy at the back end is not what you want to do.  I had to add nose
weight to mine to compensate for the extra weight of the RMS case(a G
reload is 1.4 oz heavier than the single use Gs) to get it to fly right
with the G motors.  Filling the nosecone with expanding foam insulation
adds just the right amount of weight.  About 1 oz is required. The ideal
balance point with a G33 is 2.6 inches in front of where the forward tips
of the fins meet the body. The foam works well, as you can add it when
needed and it stays put.  Trying to glue lead weights in the nosecone
doesn't work very well.  The glue doesn't stick to the plastic very well
and will eventually come loose.

Quote:
>         #2  Should I get the kit or the rocket and RMS engine set and build my
> own pad and launch control?  If the later, can someone send me the circuit
> that you use for the continuity check?  

The package is a great value and a worth while purchase. The Mantis pad is
great for model and mid power rockets. I broke mine launching a PML Quasar
on an H242 last weekend, but that was nearly twice the weight and three
times the thrust the pad was designed for.  I'll make the minor repair
needed and relegate it back to G motors. You will eventually want a
different controller, but it works fine while you figure out what you want
to build. It also makes a handy backup.  As was pointed out, you can
replace the AeroTech clip with regular clips when you move on to "real"
igniters.  Order at least one extra pack of Copperheads, as you _will_
need extras.

Quote:
>         #3  AeroTech is based in Las Vegas, and I might be moving there,
so I'm
> kind of partial to them.  However, if anyone has any other kit suggestions,
> I'm all ears!

Gee, I'm sorry to hear that. :-)  I live in Reno, and we northerners hate
Las Vegas. :-)

AeroTech is a great company.  Good people and good products.

You can't go wrong with the Initiator kit.  That's the way I went to enter
back into the Hobby.  Actually I ordered the RMS Initiator kit and the
Mirage.  The Mirage showed up first, so it got built before the
Initiator.  It will take less time to get into the air than most of the
other kits, and is nearly bullet proof.  Mine has clattered down on the
hard playa many times with no damage, survived the chute opening at
terminal velocity with no damage (due to a horizontal flight with a G33
before adding the nose weight).  It's a very tough and forgiving rocket
capable of turning in very satisfying flights.

Quote:
>         #4  AeroTech's Motor Matrix lists up to a G class engine and a
> possible altitude of 2,000 feet.  The RMS 29 40-120 casing is about 5"
> long.  Are the reload grains all the same physical size but pack different
> chemical "whallops"?  Is the power difference due to a different sized hole
> in the middle?  (Thanks to the MotorTutor software for the knowledge
> booster there!)  The kit comes with an E and F White Lightning
> reloads.  Since no hobby shop around here even knew what a reload was, what
> variety of reloads should I order with the kit?  Should I even mess with
> buying a G?  My grandma has 40 acres, 32 of which are fields.  Is this big
> enough for that kind of flight or is that a HP launch site thing?

The fuel grains are different lengths with spacers to make up the difference.

The E reload is actually a bit underpowered.  Use this one before you add
the nose weight, which isn't required until you use the Gs, and on a calm
day.  If there is any breeze at all, use the F-40. The F22 is a great
motor for calm day, moderate altitude flights, and is what I consider to
be  the minimum for this rocket.  The F40 makes a good "standard" motor,
the F52 is worth a try (not certifed, but you can launch it on your own),
the G33 offers flights like the F22 (nice, slow climb and lots of black
smoke), only higher.  Actually the G33 is a pretty good match to the
Initiator.  The G64 is a wonderful motor, and performs better than would
be expected. It's my favorite of the loads for that case, and is reason
enough to buy the case. The HV ARCAS and Mirage are a hoot on this motor.
You should get at least one of these, but save it until you've lauched the
others so you have a chance to see how the others perform and get an idea
of the drift that can be expected from various altitudes.  Also a clear
blue sky would be a good idea, as it'll put it up there where it could be
hard to see.

I'd suggest ordering  at least one of each of the F and G reloads (forget
the Es). That way you can work up in power and get a feel for the
different types of propellant.  You may find that you like one more than
another. Depending on your budget, consider getting a couple each of the
F22 and F40.

The parachutes on the AeroTech rockets are a bit on the small side, so
drift isn't much of a problem.  I think your site will be fine for all the
motors if you set up on the upwind side of the area, but save that G64 for
a calm, clear day.

I you've got any other questions about the kit(s) or RMS motor, feel free
to email me.

Ed Hackett

 
 
 

First LMR:Initiator or starter set & other questions from brand new BAR

Post by Jason Creag » Sun, 03 May 1998 04:00:00


Hi everyone.

        There's a nonfunctioning mower and a foot's worth of dandelions
awaiting my attention this morning, so I have to keep it short.  :)

        I wanted to thank everyone for the incredibly useful information
and helpful responses to my questions.  The time to reply and the thought
put into each response is truly appreciated.  When the jungle in the back
of my house turns into "yard" again, I'll answer each person individually.

        Do you think the wife will mind if I get a truck with an 8' bed to
haul everything I want to buy now?

        Boy, just having the HPR mag around is starting some great
conversations at work, too!  "Man, that reminds me of that big Estes Saturn
that I built....Went out to launch it and it took off nice and slow...was
gorgeous...too bad the reason for the gentle giant launch was that the
engine mount came unglued and it was working its way UP the inside of the
rocket."

:-)

Jason