Market for small hybrids?

Market for small hybrids?

Post by Mark S. » Mon, 31 Jul 2000 04:00:00



Hey everybody,

I just bought the "MicroHybrid" kit from Rene Caldera (it's designer and
inventor). It's an ingeneous little design, and I was just wondering how much
market interest there might be for a small hybrid motor like this if it were
ever able to go into commerical production. It's a 24mm motor that uses CO2
cylender style N2O cylender that can be bought at cooking stores, and paper
fuel grains. A small piece of APCP, an igniter and your set. No filling
equipment needed.

I've been following Rene's work for about a year, and have watched the
progression of this beuty, and I believe this would be a great way to get all
of those people who want to get into hybrids, but don't have the means to buy
the motor and the fill equipment, into hybrids.

I'm thinking it would be comparable to the 24mm aerotech reloadbles in price if
not cheaper. (The materials, and design packet only cost me $25 bucks, and 25
fuel grains only cost $5.)

At this point this may be little more than just wishfull thinking, as it's
still just an experimental kit with raw materials that you need to machine
yourself.
If you have acess to a lathe I strongly suggest you get the kit from him. Its
more than worth the money.

Check it out for yourself at http://www.microhybrid.com/

By the way...(You've heard this one before) I have no affiliation with Rene,
Just an extreemly satisfied customer.

Mark

Mark's Pyrotechnics and Rocketry Page

http://hometown.aol.com/sociald84/index.html

 
 
 

Market for small hybrids?

Post by The Silent Observe » Mon, 31 Jul 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> Hey everybody,

> I just bought the "MicroHybrid" kit from Rene Caldera (it's designer and
> inventor).

I've watched Rene's work with interest as well.  At this time, there are
three major problems with his kit (at least as pertains to those of us
who don't have the resources to get legal for amateur rocketry):

First, the motors aren't certified (and would have to be sold fully
machined, ready to load and fly, to get that status), and second, if
they were, current rules would require us to be HPR certified (if no
longer L2) in order to fly this E motor.  Third, and most damning, is
that it would require electronics to fly the E motor.

Mind you, if the motor were certified, that last snag might well change
-- especially since the motor isn't much harder to assemble than an
Aerotech 24 mm reload.  In addition, the magnetic apogee sensors that
are now available as a kit for $30 or so, and will fit in a BT-5, would
go along nicely with this motor if in fact it were sold for $25 to $50
for the hardware.

In fact, if it were sold for under $50 ready to load, with fuel grains
at the price you mention, and were certified, I'd probably buy one and
build the magnetic apogee sensor just for the cool factor (not to
mention the ability to fly E motors for around a dollar per flight,
including ejection).  I've got a couple rockets that fly very, very well
on E motors...  B)

--
 WARNING!!  This area has been designated an official DOPE FREE ZONE!!

      If you're going to be a dope, please do it somewhere else!

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer           NAR # 70141-SR Insured
Rocket Pages                http://silent1.home.netcom.com/launches.htm
Telescope Pages            http://silent1.home.netcom.com/astronomy.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

 
 
 

Market for small hybrids?

Post by pldoolittl » Wed, 02 Aug 2000 04:00:00


    I'm definitely interested.  My main concern in the thrust to
weight of the motor.  How much does it weigh loaded?  Since the
flight curve established it as a D12, how much does a D12 weigh?
Is it a full D or a light D?

   In any case, if he sells a machined kit, I'll buy one if just
for snicks.  Not sure if I want to deal with the machining just
yet...

Philip

-----------------------------------------------------------

Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com

 
 
 

Market for small hybrids?

Post by Sean McAndre » Wed, 02 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Just weighed my flight motor. 104.9gm loaded, 10.1gm propellant weight. It's
a low D at 11.5 N/sec. Delivered Isp from that flight was 112.5

According NAR S&T, an Estes D12-5 has a total weight of 45.2gm, 21.1gm of
propellant. With a total impulse of 16.8 N/sec, that gives an Isp of 81.1

The above hybrid flight was with a commercial rolled paper fuel grain. I
have sourced the grains and nitrous cylinders and can get them myself fairly
cheap. Each flight costs me $0.85.

I now have 3 gallons of HTPB which I hope to cast into some grains for my
micro hybrid as well.

Sean
http://www.mdtripoli.org/hybrid/


Quote:
>     I'm definitely interested.  My main concern in the thrust to
> weight of the motor.  How much does it weigh loaded?  Since the
> flight curve established it as a D12, how much does a D12 weigh?
> Is it a full D or a light D?

>    In any case, if he sells a machined kit, I'll buy one if just
> for snicks.  Not sure if I want to deal with the machining just
> yet...

> Philip

> -----------------------------------------------------------

> Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com

 
 
 

Market for small hybrids?

Post by Mark S. » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:
>    I'm definitely interested.  My main concern in the thrust to
>weight of the motor.  How much does it weigh loaded?  Since the
>flight curve established it as a D12, how much does a D12 weigh?
>Is it a full D or a light D?

>   In any case, if he sells a machined kit, I'll buy one if just
>for snicks.  Not sure if I want to deal with the machining just
>yet...

>Philip

The thrust to weight ratio is probably not all that great, but I dobt it would
be too much worse than an estes considering that the Isp is about 1.5-2X that
of BP.

I'm not sure if Rene is planning on turning it into a fully machined product, I
was just asking the question to find out people's opinions on something like
that.

Mark

Mark's Pyrotechnics and Rocketry Page

http://hometown.aol.com/sociald84/index.html

 
 
 

Market for small hybrids?

Post by pldoolittl » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Any chances on a machined kit?

Philip

-----------------------------------------------------------

Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com

 
 
 

Market for small hybrids?

Post by The Silent Observe » Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> Any chances on a machined kit?

According to Rene's web site, he's considering that -- but I also looked
at the kit, and it looks as if you could do the job with a drill press,
if you only had an adapter chuck that would chuck work 1" in diameter.
If only I had some money ... and a place to test/fly experimental
motors!

--
 WARNING!!  This area has been designated an official DOPE FREE ZONE!!

      If you're going to be a dope, please do it somewhere else!

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer           NAR # 70141-SR Insured
Rocket Pages                http://silent1.home.netcom.com/launches.htm
Telescope Pages            http://silent1.home.netcom.com/astronomy.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

 
 
 

Market for small hybrids?

Post by Mark S. » Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:
>According to Rene's web site, he's considering that -- but I also looked
>at the kit, and it looks as if you could do the job with a drill press,
>if you only had an adapter chuck that would chuck work 1" in diameter.
>If only I had some money ... and a place to test/fly experimental
>motors!

You may be able to machine the injector assmebly and nozzle on a drill press,
but you wouldn't be able to make the internal snap ring grooves on the tube.

Mark

Mark's Pyrotechnics and Rocketry Page

http://hometown.aol.com/sociald84/index.html

 
 
 

Market for small hybrids?

Post by Mark Recktenwal » Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> According to Rene's web site, he's considering that -- but I also looked
> at the kit, and it looks as if you could do the job with a drill press,
> if you only had an adapter chuck that would chuck work 1" in diameter.
> If only I had some money ... and a place to test/fly experimental
> motors!

Not in GA!

(ducking)

--
Mark Recktenwald
Stow, Ohio
NAR #77432, Level 1, Co V.P./Sec'y MTMA, NAR Section #606
MTMA web page: http://web.raex.com/~markndeb/rockets/mtma/

 
 
 

Market for small hybrids?

Post by The Silent Observe » Sun, 06 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> You may be able to machine the injector assmebly and nozzle on a drill press,
> but you wouldn't be able to make the internal snap ring grooves on the tube.

You just bet me I couldn't...  B)

All you need is a way to hold your tool steady and move it in a
controlled manner; seems to me it wouldn't be hard to make a cross slide
from maple blocks and mount an appropriately shaped cutter on it.  In
fact, you could probably do it with a Dremel and a mill cutter clamped
in a vise, if you have some way to move the vise a precise distance.

--
 WARNING!!  This area has been designated an official DOPE FREE ZONE!!

      If you're going to be a dope, please do it somewhere else!

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer           NAR # 70141-SR Insured
Rocket Pages                http://silent1.home.netcom.com/launches.htm
Telescope Pages            http://silent1.home.netcom.com/astronomy.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

 
 
 

Market for small hybrids?

Post by The Silent Observe » Sun, 06 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:


> > According to Rene's web site, he's considering that -- but I also looked
> > at the kit, and it looks as if you could do the job with a drill press,
> > if you only had an adapter chuck that would chuck work 1" in diameter.
> > If only I had some money ... and a place to test/fly experimental
> > motors!

> Not in GA!

> (ducking)

Heh.  B)

That's the point -- I'd need someplace separate from the fields where I
fly model and HPR; I'd have to be out of King County even to static
test, I think, and to fly, I'd need a lot of private land, an in with
the owner, and a quick legal check on state regs (as well as an FAA
waiver, since this isn't a legal model rocket, but that last isn't all
that hard to get).

Of course, I'd also want to know what made the difference between Rene's
E24 and one of his first customers' barely-D12.

--
 WARNING!!  This area has been designated an official DOPE FREE ZONE!!

      If you're going to be a dope, please do it somewhere else!

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer           NAR # 70141-SR Insured
Rocket Pages                http://silent1.home.netcom.com/launches.htm
Telescope Pages            http://silent1.home.netcom.com/astronomy.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

 
 
 

Market for small hybrids?

Post by Bob Kapl » Tue, 08 Aug 2000 04:00:00



Quote:
> First, the motors aren't certified (and would have to be sold fully
> machined, ready to load and fly, to get that status), and second, if
> they were, current rules would require us to be HPR certified (if no
> longer L2) in order to fly this E motor.  Third, and most damning, is
> that it would require electronics to fly the E motor.

I think #1 is the key. If this motor were available to order today AND
certified, I'd order one now. The HPR certification is a non issue. We had
no L1 motors. Now that we do, the artificail l2 restriction on hybrids is
gone. The same thing happened with reloads. When they first came out, you
had to be certified for reloads. Not any more. I'd bet that once these
things got certified and hit the streets, no HPR certification would be
needed to fly them.

        Bob Kaplow      NAR # 18L       TRA # "Ctrl-Alt-Del"

Kaplow Klips:   http://members.aol.com/myhprcato/KaplowKlips.html (baffle too!)
NIRA:           http://www.nira.chicago.il.us  NAR:    http://www.nar.org

 
 
 

Market for small hybrids?

Post by The Silent Observe » Thu, 10 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> I think #1 is the key. If this motor were available to order today AND
> certified, I'd order one now. The HPR certification is a non issue. We had
> no L1 motors. Now that we do, the artificail l2 restriction on hybrids is
> gone. The same thing happened with reloads. When they first came out, you
> had to be certified for reloads. Not any more. I'd bet that once these
> things got certified and hit the streets, no HPR certification would be
> needed to fly them.

You might well be right, Bob.  I certainly wish there were certified so
I could find out -- heck, I have L1, I could fly 'em anyway, after I get
an apogee sensor of some sort.  If only they were certified.

And I'd pay $50 for one without blinking (well, okay, I'd blink; I might
even flinch, given what it took me to buy my second 29/40-120 case after
losing the first one on the first flight, but I'd buy it anyway).  With
fuel grains twenty cents each, Whippets Jr. bulbs available at the local
grocery (and in fact I've got several dozen of them that go with a
whipped cream maker I bought at a yard sale almost ten years ago), and
only a good hot igniter needed for the pyrovalve, these things could
literally fly for a price that competes with AT D15 reloads -- and you'd
get E impulse, if the motor was built to that spec.

--
 WARNING!!  This area has been designated an official DOPE FREE ZONE!!

      If you're going to be a dope, please do it somewhere else!

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer           NAR # 70141-SR Insured
Rocket Pages                http://silent1.home.netcom.com/launches.htm
Telescope Pages            http://silent1.home.netcom.com/astronomy.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.