Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Berger Brun » Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:00:00



Hello there
Does anybody know where to find some infos about the combinations of
Potassium perchlorate (as the oxydizer) and different kinds of fuels
(metalls, Hydrocarbons etc) as a propellant for rockets?
What are the experiences with this kind of propellant, mixture ratios,
ISP's etc

Many Thanks for every hint!

Greetings Bruno Berger

 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Jeff Burne » Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Try http://members.aol.com/ricnakk/index.html ,
http://www.space-rockets.com/Cptechno.html
http://www.nmt.edu/~rcalkins/aRocket/arweb.html excellent listserver
Jeff Burnett

On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:24:22 +0200, Berger Bruno

Quote:

>Hello there
>Does anybody know where to find some infos about the combinations of
>Potassium perchlorate (as the oxydizer) and different kinds of fuels
>(metalls, Hydrocarbons etc) as a propellant for rockets?
>What are the experiences with this kind of propellant, mixture ratios,
>ISP's etc

>Many Thanks for every hint!

>Greetings Bruno Berger


 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Jerry Irvi » Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:00:00



Quote:

> Hello there
> Does anybody know where to find some infos about the combinations of
> Potassium perchlorate (as the oxydizer) and different kinds of fuels
> (metalls, Hydrocarbons etc) as a propellant for rockets?
> What are the experiences with this kind of propellant, mixture ratios,
> ISP's etc

> Many Thanks for every hint!

> Greetings Bruno Berger

You can directly exchange KP for all or some of the AP in any AP mixture.
However KP has a much higher burning rate exponent so retesting is
certainly needed and making a particular design work is more diffficult
and the casing safety margin should be doubled for KP vs AP formulas.

Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California USA

 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Defaul » Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Quote:



> > Hello there
> > Does anybody know where to find some infos about the combinations of
> > Potassium perchlorate (as the oxydizer) and different kinds of fuels
> > (metalls, Hydrocarbons etc) as a propellant for rockets?
> > What are the experiences with this kind of propellant, mixture ratios,
> > ISP's etc

> > Many Thanks for every hint!

> > Greetings Bruno Berger

> You can directly exchange KP for all or some of the AP in any AP mixture.
> However KP has a much higher burning rate exponent so retesting is
> certainly needed and making a particular design work is more diffficult
> and the casing safety margin should be doubled for KP vs AP formulas.

> Jerry

> --
> Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California USA


Gosh Jerry,  That just about covers it, doesn't it?  I was going to add
my link to the rockit perpelant site but you seem to be a perpelant
expert.  You sir, have either dazzled him with brilliance, or you've
baffled him....

Bruno,  We've collected a listing of websites just for people like you.
Go here and learn to your hearts content:

http://www.everett.net/users/bloomer/propelant.html

Good luck, be safe,
Steve Bloom

 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Virale » Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Do you really think that making motors is not part of model rocketry?
Yes there is the security problem.
But many other practices may be considered "unsafe".

Why not a web page beginning with

"So you want to build your own rocket?
While I personally prefer to buy commercially made rocket kits, there are
some people who have success (and failures) building their own.
..."

Followed by a list of scratch build model rockets sites.

A bad designed model rocket with a commercial motor is as dangerous as a
well designed model rocket with a well designed home made motor.

If some people have a real interest in designing and building rockets motors
with a scientific approach, I think this is the right newsgroup to discuss
of it.
We only have to disourage people doing this only to spare money.

Michel

 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Peter Olivo » Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:00:00


What you're describing is pyrotechnics, not model rocketry.  There's
at least one newsgroup for it.  Go there.

Quote:

>Do you really think that making motors is not part of model rocketry?
>Yes there is the security problem.
>But many other practices may be considered "unsafe".

>Why not a web page beginning with

>"So you want to build your own rocket?
>While I personally prefer to buy commercially made rocket kits, there are
>some people who have success (and failures) building their own.
>..."

>Followed by a list of scratch build model rockets sites.

>A bad designed model rocket with a commercial motor is as dangerous as a
>well designed model rocket with a well designed home made motor.

>If some people have a real interest in designing and building rockets motors
>with a scientific approach, I think this is the right newsgroup to discuss
>of it.
>We only have to disourage people doing this only to spare money.

>Michel


 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Virale » Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:00:00


What I find on rec.pyrotechnics is not model rocketry. I don't want to make
big sparks, green fumes, big bangs or mortar. Only propulsive devices...

Michel

Quote:

>What you're describing is pyrotechnics, not model rocketry.  There's
>at least one newsgroup for it.  Go there.

 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Defaul » Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Quote:

> Do you really think that making motors is not part of model rocketry?

Oh I wish the Silent Observer would chime in here.  The short answer is
"yes", "I do really think that home made motors are not part of model
rocketry."  By definition a model rocket motor is one that is
commercially manufactured and certified by either the NAR or Tripoli, to
paraphrase.  The whole idea behind model rocketry in the begining was to
get the kids out of the ba***t bomber business and into a safe, self
regulated fun hobby.  In most states you can legally use model rocket
motors with no special permits or license.  In most states home made
motors require special license and permits or are flat out illegal to
use.

Don't get me wrong.  I don't discourage motor making.  But our group
conscience is to steer the motor building crowd to the more applicable
formats and groups.

Quote:
> We only have to disourage people doing this only to spare money.

How do you tell the difference from an internet posting?

Quote:

> Michel

Sincerely,
Steve Bloom
 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Virale » Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Quote:

>By definition a model rocket motor is one that is commercially manufactured

and >certified by either the NAR or Tripoli

So "small" (if I can't say "model") rockets using motors manufactured
outside USA and not distributed in this country are not model rockets motor?
Do the "model rocketeers" from the old east block agrees?

Quote:
>> We only have to disourage people doing this only to spare money.

>How do you tell the difference from an internet posting?

Most of the time, you can rapidly guess...

Michel

 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Jerry Irvi » Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:00:00



Quote:


> > You can directly exchange KP for all or some of the AP in any AP mixture.
> > However KP has a much higher burning rate exponent so retesting is
> > certainly needed and making a particular design work is more diffficult
> > and the casing safety margin should be doubled for KP vs AP formulas.
> Gosh Jerry,  That just about covers it, doesn't it?  I was going to add
> my link to the rockit perpelant site but you seem to be a perpelant
> expert.  You sir, have either dazzled him with brilliance, or you've
> baffled him....
> Good luck, be safe,
> Steve Bloom

Steve your reply to is munged.

So you feel it appropriate to criticize me because I actually posted
realistic useable information on rmr instead of complaining about formula
postings or merely posting referrals to other people's work?

I am sorry I offended you.

Not.

Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California USA

 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Jerry Irvi » Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:00:00



Quote:


> > Do you really think that making motors is not part of model rocketry?

> Oh I wish the Silent Observer would chime in here.  The short answer is
> "yes", "I do really think that home made motors are not part of model
> rocketry."  By definition a model rocket motor is one that is

True enough.

Quote:
> commercially manufactured and certified by either the NAR or Tripoli, to
> paraphrase.  The whole idea behind model rocketry in the begining was to
> get the kids out of the ba***t bomber business and into a safe, self
> regulated fun hobby.  In most states you can legally use model rocket
> motors with no special permits or license.  In most states home made
> motors require special license and permits or are flat out illegal to
> use.

> Don't get me wrong.  I don't discourage motor making.  But our group
> conscience is to steer the motor building crowd to the more applicable
> formats and groups.

My post was sufficiently vague on basics that only a successful AP
propellant maker could use the KP info I presented.  It was another jerk
who posted URL's for ba***t bomber sites.  My post was neo-technical.

Quote:

> > We only have to disourage people doing this only to spare money.

> How do you tell the difference from an internet posting?

This is an unmoderated group so it is by mere courtesy you do not see more
how to make motor postings.

Fortunately those interested enough in this subject have arocket listserv
available to them.

Quote:

> > Michel

> Sincerely,
> Steve Bloom

Just Jerry

Manufacturer for several decades :)

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California USA

 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Antoine Lefebv » Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:00:00


The most interesting part in model rocketry is to build rocket motor. It
need time, research, science and idea. But, it seem that the mojority of
the rocketer don't like it. If you would like to talk rocket motor, come
to rec.pyrotechnics and have fun.

Quote:



>> > Do you really think that making motors is not part of model rocketry?

>> Oh I wish the Silent Observer would chime in here.  The short answer is
>> "yes", "I do really think that home made motors are not part of model
>> rocketry."  By definition a model rocket motor is one that is

>True enough.

>> commercially manufactured and certified by either the NAR or Tripoli, to
>> paraphrase.  The whole idea behind model rocketry in the begining was to
>> get the kids out of the ba***t bomber business and into a safe, self
>> regulated fun hobby.  In most states you can legally use model rocket
>> motors with no special permits or license.  In most states home made
>> motors require special license and permits or are flat out illegal to
>> use.

>> Don't get me wrong.  I don't discourage motor making.  But our group
>> conscience is to steer the motor building crowd to the more applicable
>> formats and groups.

>My post was sufficiently vague on basics that only a successful AP
>propellant maker could use the KP info I presented.  It was another jerk
>who posted URL's for ba***t bomber sites.  My post was neo-technical.

>> > We only have to disourage people doing this only to spare money.

>> How do you tell the difference from an internet posting?

>This is an unmoderated group so it is by mere courtesy you do not see more
>how to make motor postings.

>Fortunately those interested enough in this subject have arocket listserv
>available to them.

>> > Michel

>> Sincerely,
>> Steve Bloom

>Just Jerry

>Manufacturer for several decades :)

>--
>Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California USA


--
Antoine Lefebvre

http://www.FoundCollection.com/
http://www.FoundCollection.com/
http://www.FoundCollection.com/
 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Steve Bloo » Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Quote:


>>By definition a model rocket motor is one that is commercially
manufactured
>and >certified by either the NAR or Tripoli

>So "small" (if I can't say "model") rockets using motors manufactured
>outside USA and not distributed in this country are not model rockets

motor?

Yup.  A kid can fly a model rocket in a field with his dad and not get
arrested.
A kid can't fly an illegally imported pyrotechnique device anywhere without
bringing down the wrath of the authorities.

Quote:
>Do the "model rocketeers" from the old east block agrees?

Back east, they might be called model rocket motors.  And they may be legal
to fly in downtown Stalingrad.  They might call a stick of dynamite a "party
popper".  But we've chosen to define a model rocket very specifically and
then write regualtions using that term.  If you fly by the regs, your fine.

If you fly a home made metal rocket with a bottle rocket motor in a city
park you will be subject to fines and arrest.  If you fly a model rocket
with certified model rocket motor in a city park you will be within the FAA
regs, the NFPA regs and ok by the BATF.  The city or county or state may
have stiffer requirements but you get the picture.

Steve Bloom
Seattle Area Rocketeer
Skunkworks West
http://www.everett.net/users/bloomer/index.htm
For despaming:  Remove the pluralizing letter from bloomers

 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Jerry Irvi » Thu, 17 Jun 1999 04:00:00



Quote:


> >>By definition a model rocket motor is one that is commercially
> manufactured
> >and >certified by either the NAR or Tripoli

In the United States it is.

Quote:


> >So "small" (if I can't say "model") rockets using motors manufactured
> >outside USA and not distributed in this country are not model rockets
> motor?

He has a point.  The foreign teams for intrnats essentially use home brew
motors which they "certify" essentially the day before the meet.
Internats rocketry is clearly model rocketry by NAR standards.

Therefore he has justified his post.  A rare event which should be noticed.

Quote:

> Yup.  A kid can fly a model rocket in a field with his dad and not get
> arrested.
> A kid can't fly an illegally imported pyrotechnique device anywhere without
> bringing down the wrath of the authorities.

> >Do the "model rocketeers" from the old east block agrees?

> Back east, they might be called model rocket motors.  And they may be legal
> to fly in downtown Stalingrad.  They might call a stick of dynamite a "party
> popper".  But we've chosen to define a model rocket very specifically and
> then write regualtions using that term.  If you fly by the regs, your fine.

> If you fly a home made metal rocket with a bottle rocket motor in a city
> park you will be subject to fines and arrest.  If you fly a model rocket
> with certified model rocket motor in a city park you will be within the FAA
> regs, the NFPA regs and ok by the BATF.  The city or county or state may
> have stiffer requirements but you get the picture.

Excessive horribilizations ignored.

Quote:

> Steve Bloom
> Seattle Area Rocketeer
> Skunkworks West
> http://www.everett.net/users/bloomer/index.htm
> For despaming:  Remove the pluralizing letter from bloomers

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California USA

 
 
 

Solid Propellants (Potassium perchlorate)

Post by Defaul » Fri, 18 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Quote:

> > > You can directly exchange KP for all or some of the AP in any AP mixture.
> > > However KP has a much higher burning rate exponent so retesting is
> > > certainly needed and making a particular design work is more diffficult
> > > and the casing safety margin should be doubled for KP vs AP formulas.


> > Gosh Jerry,  That just about covers it, doesn't it?  I was going to add
> > my link to the rockit perpelant site but you seem to be a perpelant
> > expert.  You sir, have either dazzled him with brilliance, or you've
> > baffled him....

> > Good luck, be safe,
> > Steve Bloom

And Jerry came back with:

Quote:
> Steve your reply to is munged.

> So you feel it appropriate to criticize me because I actually posted
> realistic useable information on rmr instead of complaining about formula
> postings or merely posting referrals to other people's work?

> I am sorry I offended you.

> Not.

> Jerry

Jerry Jerry Jerry.  Do you really think that Bruno hit the ground runnin
after your post?  This is what he said, cut and paste:

Hello there
Does anybody know where to find some infos about the combinations of
Potassium perchlorate (as the oxydizer) and different kinds of fuels
(metalls, Hydrocarbons etc) as a propellant for rockets?
What are the experiences with this kind of propellant, mixture ratios,
ISP's etc

Many Thanks for every hint!

Greetings Bruno Berger
end paste:

That's what he asked and you come out with a post that sounded like the
scare crow after he got his brain from the Wizard of Oz.  The guy asked
a very broad question and you gave a very narrow answer.  Totally
useless.  Maybe you weren't trying to impress everybody with techno
babble and were actually trying to help Bruno.

Not.

Steve Bloom
Perpellant Expert
The sum of the squares of the short sides of the isocolies triangle
equals the square of the third side.  (Said very rapidly with finger to
chin.)