BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by LSLubec » Sat, 01 Aug 1998 04:00:00



Just had my first BATF inspection. I keep all composite and black powder motors
in my magazine along with ignitors and thermalite. The magazine  is in my shed
75+ feet from the house along with the lawn mower and gas can. I had to remove
the lawn mower and gas can, cant be in the same area. She also wanted only
motors above 62.5 grams in the box. She showed me a letter that stated anything
over 62.5 grams IS repeat IS BATF regulated. She wanted everything not
regulated out of the box. This included my thermalite or detonators as she
called them.  I have to assume she wants the thermalite in a separate box in
another area.  She went by the book quoting chapter and verse. Other than that
all went well. She was not very knowledgeable about high power rocketry. She
seemed to compare everything to high explosives. She said I had the first three
point locking magazine she had seen. All others had a simple padlock, not
covered. She was very friendly. I think she and her office are going to do some
research to be better prepared for the next  inspection. Others in her office
have done inspections but she had not. On the inventory sheet she also wanted
my motor dealers BATF license number. She also wanted manufacturers date and
shift codes of the motors on this sheet.
Good luck to anyone in the Ohio area.

Steve Lubecki

 
 
 

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by Henry Oese » Sat, 01 Aug 1998 04:00:00


(Edited for Television)

Quote:
> She also wanted only motors above 62.5 grams in the box. She showed me a letter
> that stated anything over 62.5 grams IS repeat IS BATF regulated.

in assembled form... but let's not go there... I believe her.

Quote:
> She wanted everything not regulated out of the box. This included my thermalite
> or detonators as she called them..

She was wrong here... Therm is an LE item.... but hell, whatever floats her boat
right? She is suffering from what 90% of field agents are suffering from...
" I have no idea what the hell this is, why I'm here, or why there are
 no 'safety first' signs in this guys industrial plant, even if it is just a small house'
syndrome... ;-)

--

Henry Oeser
NOVAAR#205, MDTRA#68, EVARA#82, NCTRA#40.
NAR#65336,  TRA#4782

 
 
 

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by Bob Crowle » Sat, 01 Aug 1998 04:00:00


I just had my interview yesterday and the Inspector I dealt with was very familiar
with HPR.
He also indicated that detonators must be in approved storage separate from the
storage of
low explosives. He did not indicate whether or not thermalite or igniter cord was
considered
a detanator. He also indicated that, at least for my area (Minnesota) they are not
approving
any storage located in attached garages. Bummer.

Bob

Quote:

> Just had my first BATF inspection. I keep all composite and black powder motors
> in my magazine along with ignitors and thermalite. The magazine  is in my shed
> 75+ feet from the house along with the lawn mower and gas can. I had to remove
> the lawn mower and gas can, cant be in the same area. She also wanted only
> motors above 62.5 grams in the box. She showed me a letter that stated anything
> over 62.5 grams IS repeat IS BATF regulated. She wanted everything not
> regulated out of the box. This included my thermalite or detonators as she
> called them.  I have to assume she wants the thermalite in a separate box in
> another area.  She went by the book quoting chapter and verse. Other than that
> all went well. She was not very knowledgeable about high power rocketry. She
> seemed to compare everything to high explosives. She said I had the first three
> point locking magazine she had seen. All others had a simple padlock, not
> covered. She was very friendly. I think she and her office are going to do some
> research to be better prepared for the next  inspection. Others in her office
> have done inspections but she had not. On the inventory sheet she also wanted
> my motor dealers BATF license number. She also wanted manufacturers date and
> shift codes of the motors on this sheet.
> Good luck to anyone in the Ohio area.

> Steve Lubecki

--
Bob Crowley
TRA# 6294
Level 2

These opinions are mine and not necessarily those of my employer.

 
 
 

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by Bob Kapl » Tue, 04 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> Just had my first BATF inspection. I keep all composite and black powder motors
> in my magazine along with ignitors and thermalite. The magazine  is in my shed
> 75+ feet from the house along with the lawn mower and gas can. I had to remove
> the lawn mower and gas can, cant be in the same area.

I've got attached garage storage. My 12HP lawn tractor, snow blower, roto
tiller, weed wacker, outboard motor, and gas cans plus 2 cars are all in the
garage.

Quote:
> She also wanted only
> motors above 62.5 grams in the box.

When I had my inspection, I had all my easy access 29/38mm reloads in the
magazine. No problem. That would leave nothing but the scraps of FSI
thermalite and the can of leftover reload BP in my magazine. But since those
all came in "toy propellant devices" that are exempt form BATF reg, maybe
they don't need storage either.

Quote:
> She showed me a letter that stated anything
> over 62.5 grams IS repeat IS BATF regulated.

Sho me the letter! And show me the revision to the orange book. Then you
better put all your estes and quest motors in magazines too and everyone
will need a BATF licence to fly any mdel rocket :-(

Quote:
> She wanted everything not
> regulated out of the box. This included my thermalite or detonators as she
> called them.  

Thermalite by itself is class C but regulated because it's not exempted as a
toy propellant device.

Quote:
> She went by the book quoting chapter and verse.

Not if she claimed easy acccess is regulated.

Quote:
> She was not very knowledgeable about high power rocketry.

So what else is new.

Quote:
> She
> seemed to compare everything to high explosives.

If this is their intent, we all better find a new hobby.

Quote:
> She said I had the first three
> point locking magazine she had seen.

Exactly what is this anyway?

Quote:
> She also wanted manufacturers date and
> shift codes of the motors on this sheet.

AT doesn't include this on many items (depending on when they were made).
There are no "shift codes".

Quote:
> Good luck to anyone in the Ohio area.

Looks like you'll need it. I guess I was wrong when I said that explosives
regs were going to force us to deal with one federal burrocracy, 50 states,
and thousands of locals. It's more like 50 federal...

It's the government, it doesn't have to make sense.

"It is not the purpose of this title to place any undue or unnecesary Federal
restrictions or burdens on law-abiding citizens with respect to the
acquisition, possession, storage, or use of explosive materials for industrial,
mining, agricultural, or other lawful purposes, or to provide for the
imposition by Federal regulations of any procedures or requirements other than
those reasonably necessary to implement the provisions of this title."

My A$$!

        Bob Kaplow      NAR # 18L       TRA # "Ctrl-Alt-Del"

Kaplow Klips:   http://members.aol.com/myhprcato/KaplowKlips.html
NIRA:           http://www.nira.chicago.il.us

 
 
 

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by Dave Davi » Tue, 04 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> Just had my first BATF inspection. I keep all composite and black powder motors
> in my magazine along with ignitors and thermalite. The magazine  is in my shed
> 75+ feet from the house along with the lawn mower and gas can. I had to remove
> the lawn mower and gas can, cant be in the same area. She also wanted only
> motors above 62.5 grams in the box. She showed me a letter that stated anything
> over 62.5 grams IS repeat IS BATF regulated. She wanted everything not
> regulated out of the box. This included my thermalite or detonators as she
> called them.  I have to assume she wants the thermalite in a separate box in
> another area.  She went by the book quoting chapter and verse. Other than that
> all went well. She was not very knowledgeable about high power rocketry. She
> seemed to compare everything to high explosives. She said I had the first three
> point locking magazine she had seen. All others had a simple padlock, not
> covered. She was very friendly. I think she and her office are going to do some
> research to be better prepared for the next  inspection. Others in her office
> have done inspections but she had not. On the inventory sheet she also wanted
> my motor dealers BATF license number. She also wanted manufacturers date and
> shift codes of the motors on this sheet.
> Good luck to anyone in the Ohio area.

> Steve Lubecki

Can anyone get a copy of this letter that is referred to. Scan it up and
post it. Inquiring minds need to know!
 
 
 

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by Bill Nels » Wed, 05 Aug 1998 04:00:00


: I've got attached garage storage. My 12HP lawn tractor, snow blower, roto
: tiller, weed wacker, outboard motor, and gas cans plus 2 cars are all in the
: garage.

Yes, but he had them in his magazine, you don't.

: > She wanted everything not
: > regulated out of the box. This included my thermalite or detonators as she
: > called them.  
:
: Thermalite by itself is class C but regulated because it's not exempted as a
: toy propellant device.
:
: > She went by the book quoting chapter and verse.
:
: Not if she claimed easy acccess is regulated.

This is a gray area. It has not yet been settled. The whole matter of
reloads is a gray area.

--

 
 
 

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by Bob Kapl » Wed, 05 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Quote:


> : I've got attached garage storage. My 12HP lawn tractor, snow blower, roto
> : tiller, weed wacker, outboard motor, and gas cans plus 2 cars are all in the
> : garage.

> Yes, but he had them in his magazine, you don't.

No, he said he had them in his SHED, along with the magazine. I have them in
my attached garage, along with my magazines. Same difference. In fact, they
are all right where I was originally going to put the magazines.    

Quote:
> This is a gray area. It has not yet been settled. The whole matter of
> reloads is a gray area.

Not according to the orange book. It's VERY clear that anything DOT
classified as "Toy Propellant Device" is exempt. Eliminate that exemption,
and you will need an LEUP and storage magazines for all apogee / estes / fsi
/ mrc / quest / et.al. BP motors.

        Bob Kaplow      NAR # 18L       TRA # "Ctrl-Alt-Del"

Kaplow Klips:   http://members.aol.com/myhprcato/KaplowKlips.html
NIRA:           http://www.nira.chicago.il.us

 
 
 

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by Kevin Juszczy » Wed, 05 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Yep, go here for supporting documentation:
http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/resource_library/regulatory.html

Quote:
>Not according to the orange book. It's VERY clear that anything DOT
>classified as "Toy Propellant Device" is exempt. Eliminate that exemption,
>and you will need an LEUP and storage magazines for all apogee / estes /
fsi
>/ mrc / quest / et.al. BP motors.

> Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Ctrl-Alt-Del"

>Kaplow Klips: http://members.aol.com/myhprcato/KaplowKlips.html
>NIRA: http://www.nira.chicago.il.us

 
 
 

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by LSLubec » Thu, 06 Aug 1998 04:00:00


I just called my BATF agent and asked for a copy of the letter. Her answer was
that this letter was an e-mail not for public viewing. She was going to try to
get an answer from a more informed agent in DC. She said she would e-mail me a
copy of what she gets as soon as she gets it. Will post it then.

Steve Lubecki

 
 
 

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by ACKistl » Thu, 06 Aug 1998 04:00:00



Quote:

>I just called my BATF agent and asked for a copy of the letter. Her answer
>was
>that this letter was an e-mail not for public viewing. ...

Hmm...  A government agency is enacting and enforcing policies
which the public is not allowed to view.  Very interesting ...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allen Kistler

 
 
 

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by Robert Synosk » Thu, 06 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Quote:



> >I just called my BATF agent and asked for a copy of the letter. Her answer
> >was
> >that this letter was an e-mail not for public viewing. ...

> Hmm...  A government agency is enacting and enforcing policies
> which the public is not allowed to view.  Very interesting ...

It sounds like we are on "double secret probation".
 
 
 

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by Bob Kapl » Thu, 06 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> Yep, go here for supporting documentation:
> http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/resource_library/regulatory.html

The ATF exempt taper trail is exactly what gary sent me last year regarding
easy access. Until they change some law that the orange book is based on,
and/or the CFR, easy access is real.

        Bob Kaplow      NAR # 18L       TRA # "Ctrl-Alt-Del"

Kaplow Klips:   http://members.aol.com/myhprcato/KaplowKlips.html
NIRA:           http://www.nira.chicago.il.us

 
 
 

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by Dave Davi » Thu, 06 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> I just called my BATF agent and asked for a copy of the letter. Her answer was
> that this letter was an e-mail not for public viewing. She was going to try to
> get an answer from a more informed agent in DC. She said she would e-mail me a
> copy of what she gets as soon as she gets it. Will post it then.

> Steve Lubecki

Do we have a case here for an FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) request?
 
 
 

BATF inspection by the book. Ohio.

Post by Jim McLaughli » Fri, 07 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Quote:


> > I just called my BATF agent and asked for a copy of the letter. Her answer was
> > that this letter was an e-mail not for public viewing. She was going to try to
> > get an answer from a more informed agent in DC. She said she would e-mail me a
> > copy of what she gets as soon as she gets it. Will post it then.

> > Steve Lubecki

> Do we have a case here for an FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) request?

        Yes.

Jim McLaughlin                     These opinions are mine, mine, mine!
Portland, OR                       And not anybody else's. So there.

Remove Anti Spam Device *!!* From Address Before Replying