Uncertified Motors

Uncertified Motors

Post by Craig Utle » Tue, 03 Feb 1998 04:00:00



I was looking at the Orbital Dynamics site and thinking how nice it would be
to use some of their motors.  When I sent an e-mail asking about
certification, I got the following response:

"Thanks, in advance, for your interest in ODI and our line of HPR products
and supplies. The RDS rocket motors are available now. Some motors have been
submitted for NAR Certification. [minor snip] As they are not certified at
this time you may still purchase and launch these motors under the following
conditions:

1)     You must have a valid BATF LEUP and proper storage.
2)     You must have a valid FAA Waiver.
3)     You must have a properly secured flight site. (i.e., a letter from
the landowner)

You dont need Tripoli or NAR, depending upon your state and local laws
 and most of you do not). If you have your BATF LEUP, send a photo copy,
with the ODI Agreement and Release,  and your drivers license (proof of age)
for our records. Once we receive the proper documents on file here you are
ready to order!
Hope this has answered your questions and we look forward to serving your
HPR requirements soon.

Have a pleasant day!

Sincerely,
David F. Johnson
President - ODI"

Now, I found this really odd.  I always thought uncertified motors were
actually illegal in most states, and I believe that NAR's insurance is null
and void if you are using uncertified motors.

I know this subject has gotten a lot of talk on here, but I'd like to know
your reaction to Mr. Johnson's message above.

--
(Remove the NOSPAM from my e-mail address to reply)

 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by Craig Utle » Tue, 03 Feb 1998 04:00:00


No, I didn't do this to start a fire storm.  The legalities of it probably
vary from state to state, but it is either legal or it isn't.  That
shouldn't be too hard.

Of course, it is probably a gray area.  As a laywer once told me, "Gray area
is why we have lawyers."

--
(Remove the NOSPAM from my e-mail address to reply)

Quote:

>Fire in the Hole!


 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by Chop » Tue, 03 Feb 1998 04:00:00


    Now, I found this really odd.  I always thought uncertified motors were
    actually illegal in most states, and I believe that NAR's insurance is
    null and void if you are using uncertified motors.

Nope, you just have to meet the AHJ's requirements for amateur rocketry or
"display fireworks" (HPR motors wouldn't actually be a display, but the
fireworks definitions are such that "display fireworks" is the official name
for rockets that require BATF LEUPs, I think.) (There are enough Amateur
Rocket and pyrotechnics groups around to prove that this is *possible*.)

NARs insurance surely doesn't cover you.  TRA's insurance probably wouldn't
cover the landowner.

    3)     You must have a properly secured flight site. (i.e., a
           letter from the landowner)

Now try getting a landowner to let you launch this explosive device without
any insurance of any kind.  Don't forget you'll need local legal permits as
well, probably - Orbital Dynamics is admitting that they can't keep track of
all the local legalities - unless that's all covered by "properly secured
flight site" and LEUP requirments.

The model rocket and HPR rulesets are essentially exemptions to the local
fireworks/amateur rocketru laws for special cases where there is evidence
that the activity is relatively safe.

I've gotta say that the non-certified motor issue at TRA launches is pretty
dwarfed by some of the other stuff that apparently goes on in the Nevada
deserts...

BillW

--
(remove spam food from return address)

 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by Buzz McDermot » Tue, 03 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> I was looking at the Orbital Dynamics site and thinking how nice it would be
> to use some of their motors.  When I sent an e-mail asking about
> certification, I got the following response:

> "Thanks, in advance, for your interest in ODI and our line of HPR products
> and supplies. The RDS rocket motors are available now. Some motors have been
> submitted for NAR Certification. [minor snip] As they are not certified at
> this time you may still purchase and launch these motors under the following
> conditions:

> 1)     You must have a valid BATF LEUP and proper storage.
> 2)     You must have a valid FAA Waiver.
> 3)     You must have a properly secured flight site. (i.e., a letter from
> the landowner)

> You dont need Tripoli or NAR, depending upon your state and local laws
>  and most of you do not). If you have your BATF LEUP, send a photo copy,
> with the ODI Agreement and Release,  and your drivers license (proof of age)
> for our records. Once we receive the proper documents on file here you are
> ready to order!
> Now, I found this really odd.  I always thought uncertified motors were
> actually illegal in most states, and I believe that NAR's insurance is null
> and void if you are using uncertified motors.

First, I do not believe ANY state has adopted NFPA 1227 into law at this
time. Therefore, as far as states are concerned, anyone flying NAR/TRA
certified motors and rockets acording to NFPA 1127 are no different than
someone flying an amateur Zinc/Sulpher fueled rocket.

PRS and RRS have been flying amateur rockets for years/decades w/o using
NAR or TRA certified motors. Legally. They just do not fly under NAR or
TRA sanction.

At this point, the safety codes and certification processes are required
to maintain membership in the NAR/TRA. You agree to follow these as part
of your membership in these organizations.

You cannot fly an uncertified motor at a TRA or NAR event or under NAR
or TRA sanction.

No matter where and how you fly an uncertified motor both NAR and TRA
insurance is null and void.

So, the letter you got is correct, but only if you want to fly outside
of NAR/TRA sanction & events and w/o either's insurance.

Now everyone can join in and tear these statements to bits. :-)

Buzz McDermott
Dallas, Texas
NAR 13559  TRA 1785  L2

 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by Chop » Tue, 03 Feb 1998 04:00:00


    First, I do not believe ANY state has adopted NFPA 1227 into law at this
    time. Therefore, as far as states are concerned, anyone flying NAR/TRA
    certified motors and rockets acording to NFPA 1127 are no different than
    someone flying an amateur Zinc/Sulpher fueled rocket.

I don't think that's true.  California, for all its faults, has separate
licensing requirements for MR (none), HPR (rockets using pro-manufactured
motors) (pyro: rockets class 3, or somesuch) and amateur rocketry (rockets
NOT using pro-manufactured motors) (pyro:rocket class 1?)

Then in addition you need the local fire marshal to approve everything, and
they set their own limits based on who knows what (for example, the LUNAR
field is approved for H and lower (but no I's.))

BillW

--
(remove spam food from return address)

 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by Christopher Co » Wed, 04 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Fire in the Hole!

 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by John H. Cato, Jr » Wed, 04 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> No, I didn't do this to start a fire storm.  The legalities of it
> probably vary from state to state, but it is either legal or it isn't.
> That shouldn't be too hard.

> Of course, it is probably a gray area.  As a laywer once told me,
> "Gray area is why we have lawyers."

Craig, I would tend to think this isn't as 'gray' as some may say.
Where I think some of this 'you can do it' stuff comes from is due to
the fact that NFPA 1127 (assuming HPR motors) is adopted in a particular
state.  If that is so, then 'being certified' (as a user AND the motor
itself) would be required, assuming the state itself didn't amend 1127
when adopted.

However, (as you've seen me post elsewhere), we still have the State
Explosives and Fire Prevention laws to contend with -- which are,
generally, even MORE restrictive (and expensive) to comply with.  This
is some of the 'selling point' that folks on the NFPA Pyro committee
(Pat Miller, for one notable example) is putting forth (legitimately)
that, having 1127 'in place' pretty much 'greases the rails' for HPR
type activity to take place (in contrast to being 'outlawed' by the
state codes on explosives or fire prevention).

Bottom line: one doesn't NEED NAR/TRA certs on motors or flyers IF the
NFPA code (1127) is NOT adopted.  However, if that is the case, you've
very likely got even a WORSE situation -- with state and local laws FAR
more restrictive.

cox:

Quote:
>> Fire in the Hole!

who dropped the match?  which 'hole'??

<g>

-- john.

 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by Christopher Co » Wed, 04 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
> I don't think that's true.  California, for all its faults, has separate
> licensing requirements for MR (none), HPR (rockets using pro-manufactured
> motors) (pyro: rockets class 3, or somesuch) and amateur rocketry
(rockets
> NOT using pro-manufactured motors) (pyro:rocket class 1?)

Yep, California, for all its faults..........Regulation.
 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by Christopher Co » Wed, 04 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
> I've gotta say that the non-certified motor issue at TRA launches is
pretty
> dwarfed by some of the other stuff that apparently goes on in the Nevada
> deserts...

Which goes to a question I have. I have been 'designing' a rather large
Hybrid, if it ever come to fruition, should I travel west to a desert, or
east to Wallops, which is allot closer? I certainly do not want to launch
something that will break of 40,000' over Ohio soil, just the drift could
put it anywhere, into a small town.

Christopher Cox

PS, maybe over one of the Great Lakes?

 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by Roy Gree » Wed, 04 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

>> I've gotta say that the non-certified motor issue at TRA launches is
>pretty
>> dwarfed by some of the other stuff that apparently goes on in the Nevada
>> deserts...

>Which goes to a question I have. I have been 'designing' a rather large
>Hybrid, if it ever come to fruition, should I travel west to a desert, or
>east to Wallops, which is allot closer? I certainly do not want to launch
>something that will break of 40,000' over Ohio soil, just the drift could
>put it anywhere, into a small town.

>Christopher Cox

>PS, maybe over one of the Great Lakes?

Do you intend to try to get it back?  Then Nevada would probably be the
place.  Otherwise Wallops would probably be a perfectly good location.  That
is where (I believe it was) Korey Kline and company went to launch a large
hybrid about a year ago.
 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by Buzz McDermot » Wed, 04 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

>     First, I do not believe ANY state has adopted NFPA 1227 into law at this
>     time. Therefore, as far as states are concerned, anyone flying NAR/TRA
>     certified motors and rockets acording to NFPA 1127 are no different than
>     someone flying an amateur Zinc/Sulpher fueled rocket.

> I don't think that's true.  California, for all its faults, has separate
> licensing requirements for MR (none), HPR (rockets using pro-manufactured
> motors) (pyro: rockets class 3, or somesuch) and amateur rocketry (rockets
> NOT using pro-manufactured motors) (pyro:rocket class 1?)

So sorry. I forgot about the Federal Republic of California. :-)

Of course, to some people, the extent of regulation in California *IS*
one of the state's faults. :-) :-)

Buzz McDermott
Dallas, Texas
NAR 13559  L2
TRA  1785  L2

 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by TonyRu » Wed, 04 Feb 1998 04:00:00


what is a BATF LEUP? And how do I get one in Washington state?

 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by Norman Heye » Wed, 04 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:


> >> I've gotta say that the non-certified motor issue at TRA launches is
> >pretty
> >> dwarfed by some of the other stuff that apparently goes on in the Nevada
> >> deserts...

> >Which goes to a question I have. I have been 'designing' a rather large
> >Hybrid, if it ever come to fruition, should I travel west to a desert, or
> >east to Wallops, which is allot closer? I certainly do not want to launch
> >something that will break of 40,000' over Ohio soil, just the drift could
> >put it anywhere, into a small town.

> >Christopher Cox

> >PS, maybe over one of the Great Lakes?

> Do you intend to try to get it back?  Then Nevada would probably be the
> place.  Otherwise Wallops would probably be a perfectly good location.  That
> is where (I believe it was) Korey Kline and company went to launch a large
> hybrid about a year ago.

Or come to Sheboygan WI this spring and fly it at the same time they
launch the Super Loki Darts. The past years have had 200K clearance, or
some similar number, and recover into Lake Michigan with the Coast Guard
doing recovery duty. Just make sure it floats, or has some sort of
floatation device that can be snagged from the surface. The Spaceport
Sheboygan (or Wisconsin) should have the specifics.

Later,
Norman
--
My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling but it Wobbles,
and the letters get in the wrong places. -- A. A. Milne
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/5280 <- My rocket web page

 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by MONTMA » Thu, 05 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

>    First, I do not believe ANY state has adopted NFPA 1227 into law at this
>    time. Therefore, as far as states are concerned, anyone flying NAR/TRA
>    certified motors and rockets acording to NFPA 1127 are no different than
>    someone flying an amateur Zinc/Sulpher fueled rocket.

>I don't think that's true.  California, for all its faults, has separate
>licensing requirements for MR (none), HPR (rockets using pro-manufactured
>motors) (pyro: rockets class 3, or somesuch) and amateur rocketry (rockets
>NOT using pro-manufactured motors) (pyro:rocket class 1?)

 In Calif.
 HPR class 3, experimental solids class 2, experimental liquids class 1
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Griffith
The R.A.T.T.-works
Monterey Machine Products
1504-A Industrial Park Street
Covina, CA  91722 U.S.A.
 
 
 

Uncertified Motors

Post by Christopher Co » Thu, 05 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> Or come to Sheboygan WI this spring and fly it at the same time they
> launch the Super Loki Darts. The past years have had 200K clearance, or
> some similar number, and recover into Lake Michigan with the Coast Guard
> doing recovery duty. Just make sure it floats, or has some sort of
> floatation device that can be snagged from the surface. The Spaceport
> Sheboygan (or Wisconsin) should have the specifics.

> Later,
> Norman
> --
> My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling but it Wobbles,
> and the letters get in the wrong places. -- A. A. Milne
> http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/5280 <- My rocket web page

Now that sounds like fun!!!!!

Don't know when my large scale stuff will be ready. When do they let go
with the Loki Darts?