NFPA 1122/1127

NFPA 1122/1127

Post by WillCarn » Wed, 23 Dec 1998 04:00:00



Does anyone have a txt pdf  etc copy of these
I can get.  $37.00 is a little much for less than
50 pages of material that not current after one
year.  The NFPA web site does not allow you
to few any of the codes.

Thanks and
Keep'em flying.
*        *        *        *        *  
It's not what you got, it's what you do with it.
Try helping other's instead of hurting them.
Instead of fighting over an inch of ground lets
lets move out into space & live in peace.
Home is where the heart is.

 
 
 

NFPA 1122/1127

Post by The Silent Observe » Wed, 23 Dec 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> Does anyone have a txt pdf  etc copy of these
> I can get.  $37.00 is a little much for less than
> 50 pages of material that not current after one
> year.  The NFPA web site does not allow you
> to few any of the codes.

It would be a violation of NFPA's copyright in these documents to give
you a copy.  NFPA makes the money to continue operation, creating and
promulgating model fire prevention codes, from sale of the codes in book
form; for anyone else to distribute copies of the codes for free would
undermine this profit line, and most likely result in rapid prosecution
by NFPA if they notice.

--
 WARNING!!  This area has been designated an official DOPE FREE ZONE!!

      If you're going to be a dope, please do it somewhere else!

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer           NAR # 70141-SR Insured
Rocket Pages             http://members.aol.com/silntobsvr/launches.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

 
 
 

NFPA 1122/1127

Post by Buzz McDermot » Wed, 23 Dec 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> Does anyone have a txt pdf  etc copy of these
> I can get.  $37.00 is a little much for less than
> 50 pages of material that not current after one
> year.  The NFPA web site does not allow you
> to few any of the codes.

The documents are copyright by NFPA. This is how the organization funds its operations (these sales
and also the corporate membership fees).

It would be quite illegal for anyone to offer free copies (except for, of course, the NFPA).

And the documents are good for at least 3 years, the minimum review cycle for each recommendation.

It *would* be nice if NFPA would offer downloadable versions of its documents at some reduced price,
though.

Buzz McDermott
Dallas, Texas

 
 
 

NFPA 1122/1127

Post by John H. Cato, Jr » Wed, 23 Dec 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> It *would* be nice if NFPA would offer downloadable versions of its
> documents at some reduced price, though.

If you will look at other electronic NFPA documents (the Natl. Electric
Code, the Fire Protection Handbook, etc), you will note (as is the norm
for practically every other model code body) that, typically, electronic
versions (mostly CDroms) cost *more* than their print brethren.

Kind of like fancy (?) IC electronics in cars -- they will be seen in
the high end (and charged 50 times their fair market value).  E-docs are
'high tech' and, therefore, deserving of the higher cost (in *their*
minds).

We can hope, however, that 'e-com' thinking will turn on a light in
somebody's head and this could change to a more rational assessment in
the future.  However, NFPA knows (as do those other model code bodies)
that the vast majority of their customers (architects, engineers, state
and local gov'ts) are bound to buy these kinds of documents and it
really doesn't matter how much (or little) they charge -- they will
*have* to have them... a 'captive market', if you will.

Thus, there is no real incentive to lower the cost (of any form -
electronic or otherwise), when you are the only game in town (so to
speak).  Thus, I don't think a few thousand hobbyists will constitute a
sufficient 'force' to cause them to change.

Sad as it is, probably the best way that could be brought to bear to
force a change in thinking would be 'outlaw' copies.  Once it's
electronic, it's real easy to dupe ad infinitum.  Thus, if the price
kept creeping up, eventually folks would probably feel no guilt in
'robbing' a few (electronic) copies -- and that may be one 'control' on
the price.

(Maybe this is the 'broader wisdom' for Tripoli publishing 1127 (in
violation of NFPA's copyright) as their 'safety code'.  <????>  Nah.  It
couldn't be that benevolent - that would violate their 'corporate
purpose'.)

-- john.

 
 
 

NFPA 1122/1127

Post by WillCarn » Thu, 24 Dec 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
>The documents are copyright by NFPA.
>This is how the organization funds its
>operations (these sales and also the
>corporate membership fees).
>It would be quite illegal for anyone to offer
>free copies (except for, of course, the
>NFPA).
>And the documents are good for at least 3
>years, the minimum review cycle for
>each recommendation.
>It *would* be nice if NFPA would offer
>downloadable versions of its documents
>at some reduced price, though.

I do try to respect copyright laws and have
no problem with that but this is another case
in point.  How do they really expect us to
follow the law, rules and reg's when they
restrict access to the very documents needed.
My locally libraries for instance have not
purchesed recent copies because of the
money/budget issue.  It does at times get
frustrating trying to be a legal and law abiding
person.

On another note, I tried to fly my seven D
rocket about two weeks ago.  I tried twice
and both times only got two motors to ignite
out of the seven.  I tried two way of wiring
them.  No damage on the rocket though,
but it never got off the pad because of it's
weight.   It's nice looking. About four inches
in diameter over four feet tall metallic silver
body with black fins and nose cone.  It does
weigh in at about four pounds.  After I get the
ATF permit and questions out of the way I will
try to use some electric matches or thermalite.

Keep'em flying.
*        *        *        *        *  
It's not what you got, it's what you do with it.
Try helping other's instead of hurting them.
Instead of fighting over an inch of ground lets
lets move out into space & live in peace.
Home is where the heart is.

 
 
 

NFPA 1122/1127

Post by Jeff Pleimlin » Thu, 24 Dec 1998 04:00:00




Quote:

> > It *would* be nice if NFPA would offer downloadable versions of its
> > documents at some reduced price, though.

> If you will look at other electronic NFPA documents (the Natl. Electric
> Code, the Fire Protection Handbook, etc), you will note (as is the norm
> for practically every other model code body) that, typically, electronic
> versions (mostly CDroms) cost *more* than their print brethren.

[rest snipped]

ANSI (www.ansi.org) has been releasing electronic (.pdf) versions of
some of their standards.  The C++ programming language standard is
$265.00 for the printed version and $18.00 for the downloaded .pdf.
IIRC the .pdf is secured so that the content can't be copied or
printed (by I may be wrong about printing).

At that price ($18), they're probably selling at least as many
as people 'sharing' their copy.

Jeff

 
 
 

NFPA 1122/1127

Post by Jerry Irvi » Thu, 24 Dec 1998 04:00:00



Quote:

> It would be a violation of NFPA's copyright in these documents to give
> you a copy.  NFPA makes the money to continue operation, creating and

Actually that is not literally true.  If TRA has adopted NFPA-1127 either
partially or in full as "model code" and reprints it on their web site as
"their" code it becomes a TRA copyright material which can be resent
unlimited as a non-profit.

While the ORIGINAL NFPA document may be copyrighted and they would
certainly like you to buy copies from them directly, one must consider the
central purpose of model codes before declaring them uncopyable under all
circumstances.

Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California USA

 
 
 

NFPA 1122/1127

Post by John H. Cato, Jr » Thu, 24 Dec 1998 04:00:00


silent:

Quote:
>> It would be a violation of NFPA's copyright in these documents to
>> give you a copy.  NFPA makes the money to continue operation,
>> creating and

irvine:

Quote:
> Actually that is not literally true.  If TRA has adopted NFPA-1127
> either partially or in full as "model code" and reprints it on their
> web site as "their" code it becomes a TRA copyright material which
> can be resent unlimited as a non-profit.

> While the ORIGINAL NFPA document may be copyrighted and they would
> certainly like you to buy copies from them directly, one must
> consider the central purpose of model codes before declaring them
> uncopyable under all circumstances.

The "central purpose" of model codes is to make money for the "model
code draftee".

Jerry, your speculation is not true in the case of these codes -- they
are copyrighted and *any* other entity is expressly prohibited from
duplication, in whole or in part, ANY such code.  Every single one of
these model codes (including the work of SBCCI, BOCA, ICBO, ICC as well
as NFPA) have, typically, a "sample ordinance for adoption" of the
particular subject code.  There is no entity nor jurisdiction that can
do anything OTHER than simply 'adopt' the code as their own -- and they
cannot even print the index without permission (which I doubt they'd
get).  The 'Standard Codes' (i.e. SBCCI) have at the bottom of *every*
single page "Standard xxxx (Building, Plumbing, Fire Prevention, etc)
Code?199x" and it is not there accidentally -- they want you to *know*
that *they* own this code and all any one entity can do is adopt it by
reference.

(You will not see any effective difference with the likes of ASTM or
ANSI, etc).

As to "providing this 'law' for the public", the various govt.
jurisdictions are only required (by law) to "make available" copies of
those codes adopted into law -- and that they do -- at the State Fire
Marhsal's offices in the (typically) state capitol.  Want to see what
the California Fire Prevention Code says?? Fine -- there's a copy for
you to peruse in Sacramento.  (of course, CA typically feels they don't
"need no shtinking model codes" <g>, so they just draft their own
(which, as I remember, are on their state website)).  However, most
(normal <g>) states will typically adopt one of the three model codes --
or NFPA codes directly (which are most times cited (again, "by
reference") in the three model codes).  There is *no* state jurisdiction
that has ever secured (and doubtful ever will) the 'permission' to
reprint those codes.  They can only "adopt", they cannot "reprint".

Insofar as Tripoli has reprinted NFPA 1127, I think it reasonable to
conclude that they are doing so in violation of NFPA's copyright on that
document.  They can, of course, present some documentation justifying
their illegitimate behavior here -- but we've already seen what they do
when asked to confirm their actions with "documentation".  Dang hard to
provide something one does not have.

Same here with 1127.

No.  Tripoli is printing (or, has printed) that code in violation of
NFPA's copyright - plain and simple.

-- john.

 
 
 

NFPA 1122/1127

Post by Alan Jon » Thu, 24 Dec 1998 04:00:00



Quote:
>Does anyone have a txt pdf  etc copy of these
>I can get.  $37.00 is a little much for less than
>50 pages of material that not current after one

Find a good library, probably a university library, and copy just the
pages you need for research or personal use.  I forgot the name of the
reference that I found this stuff in 10 years ago.  Alan
 
 
 

NFPA 1122/1127

Post by nojun » Thu, 24 Dec 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> Find a good library, probably a university library, and copy just the
> pages you need for research or personal use.  I forgot the name of the
> reference that I found this stuff in 10 years ago.  Alan

I found a copy at the Boeing Surplus store...for $1.50, in a volume of
"1997 National Fire Code, Vol.8" (of 12).  It contains 26 parts of the
code, including 1122 and 1127.  Sometimes it pays to haunt the local
surplus places, especially if you have any large businesses in your area
that may periodically restructure their organizations.

--
Mike
NAR #70953 - Sr/Insured/Level-1 ~ SeaNAR - The Seattle NAR Section #568
NO Junk Email, please! Real email to: amphoto [at] blarg [dot] net.
<WARNING: Do not look into laser beam with remaining eye!>

 
 
 

NFPA 1122/1127

Post by Jerry Irvi » Fri, 25 Dec 1998 04:00:00



Quote:

> irvine:
> > Actually that is not literally true.  If TRA has adopted NFPA-1127
> > either partially or in full as "model code" and reprints it on their
> > web site as "their" code it becomes a TRA copyright material which
> > can be resent unlimited as a non-profit.

> > While the ORIGINAL NFPA document may be copyrighted and they would
> > certainly like you to buy copies from them directly, one must
> > consider the central purpose of model codes before declaring them
> > uncopyable under all circumstances.
> Jerry, your speculation is not true in the case of these codes --

This is based on the question I asked on this very topic to the NFPA rep I
met in Dallas, TX (you know when I submitted 2" thick copies of evidence
to 3 members of the sport rocket caucus).

Therefore I stand by my "interpretation" until such time as the NFPA makes
an official proclimation otherwise.

For example I specifically asked about the issue of an entity adopting the
1122 code in full, incorporating it into their legisdlation or policy and
reprinting it in full.  There was a clear statement this was permissible
and the reason for the code being available for incorporation.

However it should be said that as the "basis" for any such adopted law or
rules, the copy of the original would be proper fodder for the law library
of the entity and its legal representatives and interested parties.  An
organization of any size typically has many such people.  I do believe
while NFPA isn't paying very many salaries on sales of 1122, 1127 codes,
they are selling enough to more than justify the printing costr and
airfare associated with its development.

Quote:
> No.  Tripoli is printing (or, has printed) that code in violation of
> NFPA's copyright - plain and simple.

Even though we both find fault with Tripoli for many and varied things
with full justification, this may not be one of them unless they are
reprinting it in full, cover and all, without the articles of adoption
attached.

Which I would not put it past them to do.

Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California USA

 
 
 

NFPA 1122/1127

Post by Peter Olivo » Fri, 25 Dec 1998 04:00:00



Quote:

>This is based on the question I asked on this very topic to the NFPA rep I
>met in Dallas, TX (you know when I submitted 2" thick copies of evidence
>to 3 members of the sport rocket caucus).

Two inches of reprinted rmr posts.  Bwahahahahahahahahahahah!