Uncertified AeroTech reloads

Uncertified AeroTech reloads

Post by Alan W. Holm » Sun, 26 Jan 1997 04:00:00



I just discovered that some of the AeroTech reloads I have purchased
are not certified by NAR (or TRA for that matter).

In particular I find that none of the E23 or F52 reloads for the
29/40-120 case are certified.  In addition the E11-5J reload for the
24/40 case is not certified, although the E15-3J is certifed by NAR as
an E15-4.

I called AeroTech customer service to ask if these (particularly the
29mm reloads) were going to be certified.  All they could do was
confirm that they were not currently NAR certified (though they said
something about California certified).  They had no information on
future status.

So what do I do now?  As I recall the NAR safety code has a section to
the effect: I will only use NAR certified motors in an unmodified
condition.  Presumably the RSO would not allow these motors at an NAR
launch, and any use of them privately (presuming I can find a private
field large enough) would void my insurance and violate the rules of
the NAR organization (something I **really don't** want to do).

Should I hold on to these and await certification?
Should I complain to the place I bought them? (Mountainside Hobbies)
     (I have reason to believe that they may not have known at the
      time I bought them)
Should I return them to AeroTech with a complaint?

I wish I they had been clearly identifieable as uncertified when I
bought them (since I then wouldn't have).

Anybody know anything about this issue?  Got any ideas?

Alan Holmes

 
 
 

Uncertified AeroTech reloads

Post by The Silent Observe » Sun, 26 Jan 1997 04:00:00


Quote:

> I just discovered that some of the AeroTech reloads I have purchased
> are not certified by NAR (or TRA for that matter).

<snip>

Quote:

> Should I hold on to these and await certification?
> Should I complain to the place I bought them? (Mountainside Hobbies)
>      (I have reason to believe that they may not have known at the
>       time I bought them)
> Should I return them to AeroTech with a complaint?

I'd suggest doing both the second and the third.  The chance of Aerotech
actually certifying the motors with NAR anytime soon is near-nil, based
on past performance.  For instance, the E11 you mentioned has been sold
by Aerotech for several >years< and has never been certified at any time.

It would certainly seem reasonable to let George at MSH know you're
unhappy with the situation, and also to request a retail refund or
exchange from Aerotech, to get you similarly performing certified motors
you'll be able to use legally.

Oh, yeah, that last word in the previous paragraph: in many locations in
the United States, a uncertified motor is considered a firework rocket --
and most of those locations ban firework rockets.  Launching an
uncertified motor in one of those jurisdictions might get you arrested,
if the wrong people notice.  I'd certainly mention that situation to AT
when I complain to them...

--
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| There are two kinds of fool.  One says, this is old, and therefore   |
| good, and one says, this is new, and therefore better.               |
|                                  John Brunner, _The Shockwave Rider_ |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

| Rocket Pages           http://members.aol.com/silntobsvr/modrocs.htm |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| All opinions expressed are my own, and should in no way be mistaken  |
| for those of anyone but a rabid libertarian.                         |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

 
 
 

Uncertified AeroTech reloads

Post by Wolfram v.Kipars » Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:00:00



Quote:

> So what do I do now?

> Should I hold on to these and await certification?

I wouldn't do that.

Quote:
> Should I complain to the place I bought them? (Mountainside Hobbies)
>      (I have reason to believe that they may not have known at the
>       time I bought them)

That's what I would do.  Vote with your dollars.  If no one buys Aerotech's
uncertified motors then that will put some pressure on them to do something
about it.  As long as Aerotech and their dealers keep selling these motors,
there really isn't a problem, right?

Quote:
> Should I return them to AeroTech with a complaint?

I would call Mountainside first.

Quote:

> I wish I they had been clearly identifieable as uncertified when I
> bought them (since I then wouldn't have).

Well, then they wouldn't sell, would they?  As long as people are not informed
of the facts, the motors will keep selling.  Of all of the rocketeers in
the USA,
only a fraction of them (being NAR and TRA members) have access to such a
thing as a motor certification list.  The people who have never seen such
a list,
and don't even know that one exists, (assuming that they would care if they
knew) happily buy uncertified Aerotech motors.  The consumers are happy.
The dealers are happy.  Aerotech is real happy.  Ignorance is bliss.  Kinda
puts being a NAR member into new perspective.

Quote:
> Anybody know anything about this issue?  Got any ideas?

You know about as much as I do.  I raised this issue about a year or so ago,
and no one really had much to say about it.  I found this rather surprising.

Wolf

 
 
 

Uncertified AeroTech reloads

Post by Jerry Irvi » Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:00:00



Quote:



> > Should I return them to AeroTech with a complaint?
> > I wish I they had been clearly identifieable as uncertified when I
> > bought them (since I then wouldn't have).

Here's the central issue.  Notification.  If someone has a mind to
actually (gag) comply with the voluntary regulation of the model rocket
industry and (gag again) actually limit their purchases to certified
motors, he should at least have sufficient information to make a choice.

The MR industry represents itself as being certified motor centric, as
requiring certified motors and as having suppliers who comply with the
guidelines.  However as Aerotech has shown us time and time again,
compliance is voluntary.  They do not volunteer.

One could on the one hand justify this behavior in this way alone:  the
products they sell as uncertified are legal to posess and sell UNDER SOME
CIRCUMSTANCES.

However the problem I see is that Aerotech in particular sells all these
products into a market where only certain specific products are legal to
posess and sell, thus exposing unsuspecting consumers to federal law
violations.  Hmmm has a familiar ring to it, eh?

I for one have no problem selling all manner of uncertified motors of any
power range: MR or HPR to consumers using an alternative means of
compliance other than the safety codes of MR and HPR.  But if that is the
case, then it is alternative rocketry, NOT model rocketry or high power
rocketry, which have defined terms which apply to them.

So I just coined a new term to apply to uncertified MR and HPR "class"
motors: ALTERNATIVE ROCKETRY, which is NEITHER MR nor HPR.

Quote:
>As long as people are not informed
> of the facts, the motors will keep selling.

It is intentional abuse of imperfect information which crosses the line to
illegal activity.

Quote:
> > Anybody know anything about this issue?  Got any ideas?
> and no one really had much to say about it.  I found this rather surprising.

Jerry

Leader of the free world.  Getting smaller every day.

--

Box 1242, Claremont, CA 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing.

 
 
 

Uncertified AeroTech reloads

Post by Bob Kapl » Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:00:00



Quote:
> I just discovered that some of the AeroTech reloads I have purchased
> are not certified by NAR (or TRA for that matter).

> In particular I find that none of the E23 or F52 reloads for the
> 29/40-120 case are certified.  In addition the E11-5J reload for the
> 24/40 case is not certified, although the E15-3J is certifed by NAR as
> an E15-4.

> I called AeroTech customer service to ask if these (particularly the
> 29mm reloads) were going to be certified.  All they could do was
> confirm that they were not currently NAR certified (though they said
> something about California certified).  They had no information on
> future status.

> So what do I do now?  As I recall the NAR safety code has a section to
> the effect: I will only use NAR certified motors in an unmodified
> condition.  Presumably the RSO would not allow these motors at an NAR
> launch, and any use of them privately (presuming I can find a private
> field large enough) would void my insurance and violate the rules of
> the NAR organization (something I **really don't** want to do).

> Should I hold on to these and await certification?
> Should I complain to the place I bought them? (Mountainside Hobbies)
>      (I have reason to believe that they may not have known at the
>       time I bought them)
> Should I return them to AeroTech with a complaint?

> I wish I they had been clearly identifieable as uncertified when I
> bought them (since I then wouldn't have).

> Anybody know anything about this issue?  Got any ideas?

I'd suggest the last option: return them to AeroTech. Ask for replacements
of equivalent size and class. Maybe if enough folks complain, they will
finally do something about the situation.

I've been complaining (what, me complain?) since about NARAM-35. At
NARAM-38, they said that the uncertified 24mm and 29mm motors would be
certified "soon". Note that the D9 (24mm) is also uncertified. The
uncertified 18mm motors (B6, C4, C6-5) are all being discontinued.

The dealer was probably ignorant of the certification status. Most folks
just assume that if a manufactuere s selling rocket motors that they are
certified. Not so for Aerotech. At NARAM-37, I even caught the NAR range
store selling some of these reloads. Strangely enough, the range store was
run by NARTS, which is mostly the same folks who run NAR S&T. When I pointed
out the "discrepancy" to them, they immediately pulled all the uncertified
reloads.

BTW, this whole problem goes back to NARAM-34 in the summer of 1992.
AeroTech was the host for NARAM in Vegas. At that time, they had yet to send
any reloads to NAR S&T for testing. None of them were on the NAR or TRA
certification lists. When the NAR asked, TRA president Chuck Rogers claimed
that TRA TMT had certified them all, but hadn't updated the list. Based on
this claim, all the 18/24/29mm reloads were allowed. the truth of the matter
is that TMT has NEVER certified ANY of these reloads, with the exception of
the D24-10T. But why should a convenient lie between friends stand in the
way of cash sales to consumers.

BTW, Rocketflite motors had been TMT tested, but weren't on the list,
weren't acknowledged by Chuck, and thus weren't allowed at NARAM-34.

Fred "defender of Chuck" Brennion, care to comment on this one?

        Bob Kaplow      NAR # 18L       TRA # "Abort, Retry, Fail?"

 
 
 

Uncertified AeroTech reloads

Post by Bill Spadafor » Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:00:00


Quote:

> At NARAM-37, I even caught the NAR range
> store selling some of these reloads. Strangely enough, the range store was
> run by NARTS, which is mostly the same folks who run NAR S&T. When I pointed
> out the "discrepancy" to them, they immediately pulled all the uncertified
> reloads.

It's not that strange. I asked Countdown to send me a variety of motors
and just assumed they would be certified motors. And just to make things
clear, the NARTS "committee" is me. The S & T committee has several
members of which I'm one. Although I was there when most of the Aerotech
motors were tested I don't know which ones are certified unless I have
the list in front of me.

--
Bill Spadafora  http://users.aol.com/billspad/mypage.htm or
NARTS   http://www.nar.org/NARTS/cat.html