Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by Mike Poulto » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 10:35:09



Despite reading the "list of explosive materials" and most of the
clarifications, etc. regarding hobby rocket motors, I have yet to see
the ATF's actual definition of "ammonium perchlorate composite
propellant".  It seems like a fairly straightforward term, but it's not.  
How much AP does a formula need to qualify as APCP?  Does it have to be
the only oxidizer?  What about 12% HTPB, 3% Al, 25% AP, and 60% AN?  
Ammonium nitrate propellants are not on the list, and have so far
avoided regulation.  How about AN/AP blends?  At what AP concentration
does it become APCP?

--

Mike Poulton
MTP Technologies
Not only do I speak for my company, I AM my company!

Live free or die!
http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/

 
 
 

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by RayDunak » Sun, 22 Sep 2002 11:05:22


<< At what AP concentration does it become APCP?>>

That's an excellent point, and one that I hope our lawyers will bring up. It
illustrates how vague the ATF is in determining what is and what isn't
regulated.

 
 
 

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by Bob Kapl » Sun, 22 Sep 2002 12:24:59


Quote:

> << At what AP concentration does it become APCP?>>

> That's an excellent point, and one that I hope our lawyers will bring up. It
> illustrates how vague the ATF is in determining what is and what isn't
> regulated.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of AP in APCP.

Interesting, AP itself is not on the list.

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Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by Jerry Irvin » Sun, 22 Sep 2002 11:32:28



Quote:

> << At what AP concentration does it become APCP?>>

> That's an excellent point, and one that I hope our lawyers will bring up. It
> illustrates how vague the ATF is in determining what is and what isn't
> regulated.

I doubt they will bring up that particular point because it seems to not
be a "hinge issue".

Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA

Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.

 
 
 

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by Mike Poulto » Sun, 22 Sep 2002 11:45:07



said:

Quote:


>> << At what AP concentration does it become APCP?>>

>> That's an excellent point, and one that I hope our lawyers will bring
>> up. It illustrates how vague the ATF is in determining what is and
>> what isn't regulated.

> Unfortunately, there's a lot of AP in APCP.

> Interesting, AP itself is not on the list.

The snipped part of my original post referred to the issuse of mixed-
oxidizer propellants containing both AP and AN ot KN in varying
concentrations.  If it's 50% AN and 25% AP, is it still APCP?

--

Mike Poulton
MTP Technologies
Not only do I speak for my company, I AM my company!

Live free or die!
http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/

 
 
 

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by buff.. » Sun, 22 Sep 2002 23:39:52



Quote:
><< At what AP concentration does it become APCP?>>

>That's an excellent point, and one that I hope our lawyers will bring up. It
>illustrates how vague the ATF is in determining what is and what isn't
>regulated.

The more basic question is in what grain size does AP become unstable?
Usually at room temperature or so, anything less than 75 micron, but
more traditionally the 45 micron AP is considered unstable and shock
sensitive.  That's why we normally use 200 micron (with a little 90
some times mixed in) in our EX loads so it's NOT unstable.
Unfortunately, the BATF decided all AP/APCP is bad.
 
 
 

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by Jerry Irvin » Sun, 22 Sep 2002 23:46:31



Quote:


> ><< At what AP concentration does it become APCP?>>

> >That's an excellent point, and one that I hope our lawyers will bring up. It
> >illustrates how vague the ATF is in determining what is and what isn't
> >regulated.

> The more basic question is in what grain size does AP become unstable?
> Usually at room temperature or so, anything less than 75 micron, but
> more traditionally the 45 micron AP is considered unstable and shock
> sensitive.  That's why we normally use 200 micron (with a little 90
> some times mixed in) in our EX loads so it's NOT unstable.
> Unfortunately, the BATF decided all AP/APCP is bad.

The legal break point is 45 micron.  Below that is can in rare
circumstances be detonable.

Remember the pepcon blast?

Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA

Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.

 
 
 

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by Rocket Bo » Mon, 23 Sep 2002 00:38:04




Quote:
>  Below that is can in rare circumstances be detonable.

This sentence makes no sense. Work on it and get back to us.
 
 
 

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by Stephen DeArma » Mon, 23 Sep 2002 00:43:54


How's this?

Quote:
> Below that, is can, in rare circumstances...... be detonable.

(detonate able)
Spellingandpunctuationcanbeveryimportanttoconveytheexactmessage......

Randy

 
 
 

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by Balsa Bo » Mon, 23 Sep 2002 01:30:25


Quote:

> How's this?

> > Below that, is can, in rare circumstances...... be detonable.

No, I think he meant:

Be low that...  'is canin rarecir***stances, be de ton able.

 
 
 

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by Steve Piett » Mon, 23 Sep 2002 04:44:16


Quote:

> Despite reading the "list of explosive materials" and most of the
> clarifications, etc. regarding hobby rocket motors, I have yet to see
> the ATF's actual definition of "ammonium perchlorate composite
> propellant".  It seems like a fairly straightforward term, but it's not.
> How much AP does a formula need to qualify as APCP?  Does it have to be
> the only oxidizer?  What about 12% HTPB, 3% Al, 25% AP, and 60% AN?
> Ammonium nitrate propellants are not on the list, and have so far
> avoided regulation.  How about AN/AP blends?  At what AP concentration
> does it become APCP?

I would guess AP > 0%.

Steve

 
 
 

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by SplashPattern.Com - Dav » Mon, 23 Sep 2002 06:36:47


Quote:
> Remember the pepcon blast?

Which didn't involve any fine AP.  In fact, to my knowledge nobody (as in,
no chemical companies) makes fine AP.  There are two reasons:

1)  To make fine AP opens the whole "explosives manufacturing" can of worms.
It's a lot cheaper/easier for the company to avoid this whole mess.

2)  Fine AP is pretty hygroscopic.

1+2 = The user of fine AP is expected to mill it himself from some other
particle size.

Or at least, that's always been my understanding of the situation. If
anybody knows different, fine, but it'll be the first I've heard of
non-end-users making fine AP.

--
David Hall
http://www1.iwvisp.com/thehalls
http://splashpattern.com

 
 
 

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by Jerry Irvin » Mon, 23 Sep 2002 07:16:59




Quote:
> > Remember the pepcon blast?

> Which didn't involve any fine AP.  In fact, to my knowledge nobody (as in,
> no chemical companies) makes fine AP.  There are two reasons:

> 1)  To make fine AP opens the whole "explosives manufacturing" can of worms.
> It's a lot cheaper/easier for the company to avoid this whole mess.

> 2)  Fine AP is pretty hygroscopic.

> 1+2 = The user of fine AP is expected to mill it himself from some other
> particle size.

> Or at least, that's always been my understanding of the situation. If
> anybody knows different, fine, but it'll be the first I've heard of
> non-end-users making fine AP.

> --
> David Hall
> http://www1.iwvisp.com/thehalls
> http://splashpattern.com

I have seen 45 and 55 micron on the catalog.  Above 45.001 micron
(average) is not classed as an explosive for manufacturing or shipping
purposes.

Not sure if they sell it currently.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA

Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.

 
 
 

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by John Gordo » Mon, 23 Sep 2002 07:33:39




Quote:

> > Remember the pepcon blast?

Does anyone have video online of this?  I've seen the footage on TV,
Discovery or History channel, man, it is an awe inspiring thing to view.

Thanks In Advance,
John Gordon

 
 
 

Exactly how does ATF define "APCP"?

Post by Chris Taylor J » Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:43:57


??? was perfectly clear to me.

My otherwise perfectly normal brain and mental capacity intuitively replaced
the first "is" with what he probably means "it" and understood that he
simply mispelled detonatable (not even sure if I spelled that right)

Whats the problem ?

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/


Quote:


> >  Below that is can in rare circumstances be detonable.

> This sentence makes no sense. Work on it and get back to us.