BATF Annual Inspection Visit

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by Curtis Schol » Wed, 16 Aug 2000 04:00:00



Hi Gang!

  I had my annual BATF LEUP inspection today. Agent Geoff Kaplan of rht
Detroit area office made the visit. He is a very straightforward and to the
point fellow. He asked the usual questions and I gave him the usual data. He
seemed comfortable with what we were doing.

  He did have one criticism of my paperwork though. He looked at my
inventory sheets and had a comment. I have made an inventory sheet that has
space for the type of reload, nomenclature, date purchased, date used, where
used, dealer information and such. I had the copy of the dealers license on
hand. He had me put the Federal Explosives License number of the dealer's
license on each of the recorded purchases. I did so and he was satisfied.

  He asked me to demonstrate the loading of a motor as he had never seen a
reloadable motor casing. I did so "in vitro" as I did not want to open a
sealed kit. I told him where the individual pieces pointed out would be
installed relative to the overall installation.

  He left with no bad feelings (that I could tell) or bad words (which I
would know!). All in all a good visit.

Later

Curtis Scholl

TRA 3976
NAR 72953
RRS

 
 
 

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by Greg Cisk » Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:00:00


I know I am new here but... Who are you and why should I care?
Do you run a high power deal for allot of people, or does BATF
routinely check normal citizens that do high power?

Just curious.

--



Quote:
> Hi Gang!

>   I had my annual BATF LEUP inspection today. Agent Geoff Kaplan of rht
> Detroit area office made the visit. He is a very straightforward and to
the
> point fellow. He asked the usual questions and I gave him the usual data.
He
> seemed comfortable with what we were doing.

>   He did have one criticism of my paperwork though. He looked at my
> inventory sheets and had a comment. I have made an inventory sheet that
has
> space for the type of reload, nomenclature, date purchased, date used,
where
> used, dealer information and such. I had the copy of the dealers license
on
> hand. He had me put the Federal Explosives License number of the dealer's
> license on each of the recorded purchases. I did so and he was satisfied.

>   He asked me to demonstrate the loading of a motor as he had never seen a
> reloadable motor casing. I did so "in vitro" as I did not want to open a
> sealed kit. I told him where the individual pieces pointed out would be
> installed relative to the overall installation.

>   He left with no bad feelings (that I could tell) or bad words (which I
> would know!). All in all a good visit.

> Later

> Curtis Scholl

> TRA 3976
> NAR 72953
> RRS


 
 
 

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by Bruce Kirchn » Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

>Do you run a high power deal for allot of people, or does BATF routinely check

normal citizens that do high power?<

Hi Greg, You have to have an ATF low explosives users permit to buy and store
high power motors.other than those classified as easy access. Just like a
federal firearms liscense you sign your constitutional rights away allowing the
federal government unlimited access to your residence to check your records and
 magazine. When applying for or renewing an LEUP an inspection and interview
are required.
--

Bruce Kirchner
TRA L2 #5888       NAR #69850
Michigan Team 1   HUVARS
Visit My Rocketry Home Page - http://members.aol.com/balthezar/index.html
Proud Gun Owner!

 
 
 

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by David Weinshenke » Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> whats a magazine?

A storage room or cabinet of a type and design approved
for containing explosive materials. Typical requirements
include a location 75ft. or more away from inhabited
buildings, walls of steel lined with plywood of
a specified thickness, door fastened with padlocks
protected by steel hoods, signs of a certain size
proclaiming "explosives keep fire away", etc...

It all makes perfect sense if you were storing
industrial quantities of black powder - you wouldn't
want it to level a third of the neighborhood if it
went pff in a house fire, or to tempt terrorists
to steal it to make truck bombs - but the regulations
are written in such a way that most of the larger HPR
motors and propellant grains are considered explosives
amd have to be stored in magazines, even though the risks
intended to be averted thereby seem less credible
in the case of APCP HPR motors than they would be
for black powder or similarr actual "explosives".

-dave w

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by The Silent Observe » Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:03:45


Quote:

> I know I am new here but... Who are you and why should I care?
> Do you run a high power deal for allot of people, or does BATF
> routinely check normal citizens that do high power?

The latter, Greg.  Anyone with a LEUP is subject to inspection at any
time to verify that their magazine, inventory, and in/out records are
all up to snuff.

Yet another reason I'm not interested in a LEUP (besides the fact that I
couldn't get one -- no storage in Seattle).

--
 WARNING!!  This area has been designated an official DOPE FREE ZONE!!

      If you're going to be a dope, please do it somewhere else!

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer           NAR # 70141-SR Insured
Rocket Pages                http://silent1.home.netcom.com/launches.htm
Telescope Pages            http://silent1.home.netcom.com/astronomy.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

 
 
 

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by Richrich » Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:10:43


whats a magazine?
 
 
 

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by Remove nojunk for replie » Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:37:58


Quote:
>He had me put the Federal Explosives
>License number of the dealer's
>license on each of the recorded
>purchases. I did so and he was satisfied.

Thanks for the tip.  I have a LEUP and
just got my renewal a few month's ago but
have not had an inspection requested yet.

Keep'em flying.

*      *      *      *      *      *

It's not what you got, it's what you do with it.
Try helping other's instead of hurting them.
Instead of fighting over an inch of ground lets move out into space & live in
peace.
Home is where the heart is.

 
 
 

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by David Erbas-Whit » Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:48:03


Something that you get on an occasional basis as a member of Tripoli?
<G>

David Erbas-White

Quote:

> whats a magazine?

 
 
 

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by Curtis Schol » Fri, 18 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Greg:

   Welcome to the Group. Who am I? I am not an official of the NAR or the
TRA. No one that is of any real consequence to anyone else except my family.
They depend on me and my wife for those things that make life good. I am a
BAR, Born Again Rocketeer. By day, I am am mild mannered Computer Systems
Engineer. I am a member of NAR, TRA and the Reaction Research Society. I am
certified by Tripoli Rocketry Association for Level III, that is, I am now
able to build and launch as many rockets as I can afford that use M and
above motors. I have a web site that shows my rocket and my flight.
http://www.izzy.net/~cscholl . Look for the link "My Level III attempt" for
pictures.

   When I got back into this hobby it was with the express intention of
using high power motors, H and above. During the time I was getting to the
Level II, (J and above) the BATF started a bunch of regulating. They started
making us get a Low Explosives Users Permit for those motors of a sufficient
size (J-180 is one) to buy and use. They seem to think that Ammonium
Perchlorate Composite Propellants are enough of an explosive hazard that
Terrorists and such could cause havoc with them.

   I have an LEUP because I like large rockets and large motors and I also
want to work within the Reaction Research Society and actually design and
make the motors I use.

   As for why you should care, hey, if you want to stay in low to mid power,
that's up to you. The FAA rules and a number of states think that anything
up to an H (125 grams worth, tops) is fine. Anything larger (Easy Access(TM)
aside) then you need to consider the rules and regs that make it a little
tougher on you to buy what is a perfectly reasonable and safe motor. It's
all a part of this hobby.

   I was writing to inform all those on RMR that are in similar
circumstances of my experience with the agents of the BATF. Knowledge shared
increases everyone's enjoyment of the hobby.

   And Yes, the BATF requires annual inspections of your facilities when you
apply for and receive a Low Explosives Users Permit. They like to see
records and locks and magazines to feel good about one's facility.

   I hope this answers the questions. Take care and

Keep 'Em Flying!

Curtis Scholl
KG8SU Advanced Operator
TRA 3976
NAR 72953
RRS Associate Member

Quote:

>I know I am new here but... Who are you and why should I care?
>Do you run a high power deal for allot of people, or does BATF
>routinely check normal citizens that do high power?

>Just curious.

>--




>> Hi Gang!

>>   I had my annual BATF LEUP inspection today. Agent Geoff Kaplan of rht
>> Detroit area office made the visit. He is a very straightforward and to
>the
>> point fellow. He asked the usual questions and I gave him the usual data.
>He
>> seemed comfortable with what we were doing.

>>   He did have one criticism of my paperwork though. He looked at my
>> inventory sheets and had a comment. I have made an inventory sheet that
>has
>> space for the type of reload, nomenclature, date purchased, date used,
>where
>> used, dealer information and such. I had the copy of the dealers license
>on
>> hand. He had me put the Federal Explosives License number of the dealer's
>> license on each of the recorded purchases. I did so and he was satisfied.

>>   He asked me to demonstrate the loading of a motor as he had never seen
a
>> reloadable motor casing. I did so "in vitro" as I did not want to open a
>> sealed kit. I told him where the individual pieces pointed out would be
>> installed relative to the overall installation.

>>   He left with no bad feelings (that I could tell) or bad words (which I
>> would know!). All in all a good visit.

>> Later

>> Curtis Scholl

>> TRA 3976
>> NAR 72953
>> RRS


>I know I am new here but... Who are you and why should I care?
>Do you run a high power deal for allot of people, or does BATF
>routinely check normal citizens that do high power?

>Just curious.

>--




>> Hi Gang!

>>   I had my annual BATF LEUP inspection today. Agent Geoff Kaplan of rht
>> Detroit area office made the visit. He is a very straightforward and to
>the
>> point fellow. He asked the usual questions and I gave him the usual data.
>He
>> seemed comfortable with what we were doing.

>>   He did have one criticism of my paperwork though. He looked at my
>> inventory sheets and had a comment. I have made an inventory sheet that
>has
>> space for the type of reload, nomenclature, date purchased, date used,
>where
>> used, dealer information and such. I had the copy of the dealers license
>on
>> hand. He had me put the Federal Explosives License number of the dealer's
>> license on each of the recorded purchases. I did so and he was satisfied.

>>   He asked me to demonstrate the loading of a motor as he had never seen
a
>> reloadable motor casing. I did so "in vitro" as I did not want to open a
>> sealed kit. I told him where the individual pieces pointed out would be
>> installed relative to the overall installation.

>>   He left with no bad feelings (that I could tell) or bad words (which I
>> would know!). All in all a good visit.

>> Later

>> Curtis Scholl

>> TRA 3976
>> NAR 72953
>> RRS

 
 
 

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by Curtis Schol » Fri, 18 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Greg:

   Welcome to the Group. Who am I? I am not an official of the NAR or the
TRA. No one that is of any real consequence to anyone else except my family.
They depend on me and my wife for those things that make life good. I am a
BAR, Born Again Rocketeer. By day, I am am mild mannered Computer Systems
Engineer. I am a member of NAR, TRA and the Reaction Research Society. I am
certified by Tripoli Rocketry Association for Level III, that is, I am now
able to build and launch as many rockets as I can afford that use M and
above motors. I have a web site that shows my rocket and my flight.
http://www.izzy.net/~cscholl . Look for the link "My Level III attempt" for
pictures.

   When I got back into this hobby it was with the express intention of
using high power motors, H and above. During the time I was getting to the
Level II, (J and above) the BATF started a bunch of regulating. They started
making us get a Low Explosives Users Permit for those motors of a sufficient
size (J-180 is one) to buy and use. They seem to think that Ammonium
Perchlorate Composite Propellants are enough of an explosive hazard that
Terrorists and such could cause havoc with them.

   I have an LEUP because I like large rockets and large motors and I also
want to work within the Reaction Research Society and actually design and
make the motors I use.

   As for why you should care, hey, if you want to stay in low to mid power,
that's up to you. The FAA rules and a number of states think that anything
up to an H (125 grams worth, tops) is fine. Anything larger (Easy Access(TM)
aside) then you need to consider the rules and regs that make it a little
tougher on you to buy what is a perfectly reasonable and safe motor. It's
all a part of this hobby.

   I was writing to inform all those on RMR that are in similar
circumstances of my experience with the agents of the BATF. Knowledge shared
increases everyone's enjoyment of the hobby.

   And Yes, the BATF requires annual inspections of your facilities when you
apply for and receive a Low Explosives Users Permit. They like to see
records and locks and magazines to feel good about one's facility.

   I hope this answers the questions. Take care and

Keep 'Em Flying!

Curtis Scholl
KG8SU Advanced Operator
TRA 3976
NAR 72953
RRS Associate Member

Quote:

>I know I am new here but... Who are you and why should I care?
>Do you run a high power deal for allot of people, or does BATF
>routinely check normal citizens that do high power?

>Just curious.

>--




>> Hi Gang!

>>   I had my annual BATF LEUP inspection today. Agent Geoff Kaplan of rht
>> Detroit area office made the visit. He is a very straightforward and to
>the
>> point fellow. He asked the usual questions and I gave him the usual data.
>He
>> seemed comfortable with what we were doing.

>>   He did have one criticism of my paperwork though. He looked at my
>> inventory sheets and had a comment. I have made an inventory sheet that
>has
>> space for the type of reload, nomenclature, date purchased, date used,
>where
>> used, dealer information and such. I had the copy of the dealers license
>on
>> hand. He had me put the Federal Explosives License number of the dealer's
>> license on each of the recorded purchases. I did so and he was satisfied.

>>   He asked me to demonstrate the loading of a motor as he had never seen
a
>> reloadable motor casing. I did so "in vitro" as I did not want to open a
>> sealed kit. I told him where the individual pieces pointed out would be
>> installed relative to the overall installation.

>>   He left with no bad feelings (that I could tell) or bad words (which I
>> would know!). All in all a good visit.

>> Later

>> Curtis Scholl

>> TRA 3976
>> NAR 72953
>> RRS

 
 
 

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by Greg Cisk » Fri, 18 Aug 2000 04:00:00



Quote:
>    And Yes, the BATF requires annual inspections of your facilities when
you
> apply for and receive a Low Explosives Users Permit. They like to see
> records and locks and magazines to feel good about one's facility.

>    I hope this answers the questions. Take care and

Yes it does thanks. And thanks to everyone else that set me straight.
I didn't realize they were so "nazi" about it...

They must think the HPR people are in the same business as
survivalists or something. Or maybe they went to one of kaplow
biker rallies (TPR launches) or something.

Either way I guess I am sort of surprised at how restrictive they
are.

--


 
 
 

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by 747 Grou » Fri, 18 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Nicely done, Curtis.  Nicely done.

Steve Bloom

Quote:

> Greg:

>    Welcome to the Group. Who am I? I am not an official of the NAR or the
> TRA. No one that is of any real consequence to anyone else except my family.
> They depend on me and my wife for those things that make life good. I am a
> BAR, Born Again Rocketeer. By day, I am am mild mannered Computer Systems
> Engineer. I am a member of NAR, TRA and the Reaction Research Society. I am
> certified by Tripoli Rocketry Association for Level III, that is, I am now
> able to build and launch as many rockets as I can afford that use M and
> above motors. I have a web site that shows my rocket and my flight.
> http://www.izzy.net/~cscholl . Look for the link "My Level III attempt" for
> pictures.

>    When I got back into this hobby it was with the express intention of
> using high power motors, H and above. During the time I was getting to the
> Level II, (J and above) the BATF started a bunch of regulating. They started
> making us get a Low Explosives Users Permit for those motors of a sufficient
> size (J-180 is one) to buy and use. They seem to think that Ammonium
> Perchlorate Composite Propellants are enough of an explosive hazard that
> Terrorists and such could cause havoc with them.

>    I have an LEUP because I like large rockets and large motors and I also
> want to work within the Reaction Research Society and actually design and
> make the motors I use.

>    As for why you should care, hey, if you want to stay in low to mid power,
> that's up to you. The FAA rules and a number of states think that anything
> up to an H (125 grams worth, tops) is fine. Anything larger (Easy Access(TM)
> aside) then you need to consider the rules and regs that make it a little
> tougher on you to buy what is a perfectly reasonable and safe motor. It's
> all a part of this hobby.

>    I was writing to inform all those on RMR that are in similar
> circumstances of my experience with the agents of the BATF. Knowledge shared
> increases everyone's enjoyment of the hobby.

>    And Yes, the BATF requires annual inspections of your facilities when you
> apply for and receive a Low Explosives Users Permit. They like to see
> records and locks and magazines to feel good about one's facility.

>    I hope this answers the questions. Take care and

> Keep 'Em Flying!

> Curtis Scholl
> KG8SU Advanced Operator
> TRA 3976
> NAR 72953
> RRS Associate Member


> >I know I am new here but... Who are you and why should I care?
> >Do you run a high power deal for allot of people, or does BATF
> >routinely check normal citizens that do high power?

> >Just curious.

> >--




> >> Hi Gang!

> >>   I had my annual BATF LEUP inspection today. Agent Geoff Kaplan of rht
> >> Detroit area office made the visit. He is a very straightforward and to
> >the
> >> point fellow. He asked the usual questions and I gave him the usual data.
> >He
> >> seemed comfortable with what we were doing.

> >>   He did have one criticism of my paperwork though. He looked at my
> >> inventory sheets and had a comment. I have made an inventory sheet that
> >has
> >> space for the type of reload, nomenclature, date purchased, date used,
> >where
> >> used, dealer information and such. I had the copy of the dealers license
> >on
> >> hand. He had me put the Federal Explosives License number of the dealer's
> >> license on each of the recorded purchases. I did so and he was satisfied.

> >>   He asked me to demonstrate the loading of a motor as he had never seen
> a
> >> reloadable motor casing. I did so "in vitro" as I did not want to open a
> >> sealed kit. I told him where the individual pieces pointed out would be
> >> installed relative to the overall installation.

> >>   He left with no bad feelings (that I could tell) or bad words (which I
> >> would know!). All in all a good visit.

> >> Later

> >> Curtis Scholl

> >> TRA 3976
> >> NAR 72953
> >> RRS


> >I know I am new here but... Who are you and why should I care?
> >Do you run a high power deal for allot of people, or does BATF
> >routinely check normal citizens that do high power?

> >Just curious.

> >--




> >> Hi Gang!

> >>   I had my annual BATF LEUP inspection today. Agent Geoff Kaplan of rht
> >> Detroit area office made the visit. He is a very straightforward and to
> >the
> >> point fellow. He asked the usual questions and I gave him the usual data.
> >He
> >> seemed comfortable with what we were doing.

> >>   He did have one criticism of my paperwork though. He looked at my
> >> inventory sheets and had a comment. I have made an inventory sheet that
> >has
> >> space for the type of reload, nomenclature, date purchased, date used,
> >where
> >> used, dealer information and such. I had the copy of the dealers license
> >on
> >> hand. He had me put the Federal Explosives License number of the dealer's
> >> license on each of the recorded purchases. I did so and he was satisfied.

> >>   He asked me to demonstrate the loading of a motor as he had never seen
> a
> >> reloadable motor casing. I did so "in vitro" as I did not want to open a
> >> sealed kit. I told him where the individual pieces pointed out would be
> >> installed relative to the overall installation.

> >>   He left with no bad feelings (that I could tell) or bad words (which I
> >> would know!). All in all a good visit.

> >> Later

> >> Curtis Scholl

> >> TRA 3976
> >> NAR 72953
> >> RRS

 
 
 

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by Leonard Fehske » Fri, 18 Aug 2000 04:00:00



Quote:

>> whats a magazine?
>Something that you get on an occasional basis as a member of Tripoli?

Right.  That's why HPR flyers have to have their own!

len.

 
 
 

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by Dave Urbane » Fri, 18 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> I didn't realize they were so "nazi" about it...

> They must think the HPR people are in the same business as
> survivalists or something. Or maybe they went to one of kaplow
> biker rallies (TPR launches) or something.

> Either way I guess I am sort of surprised at how restrictive they
> are.

Yes, they are fairly 'nazi' about it.  One of the reasons the Nazis got so
powerful was that people didn't do anything about the loss of rights of a
strange minority.  Right now the Feds are doing things that severely restrict
the rights of a strange minority (rocket hobbyists) for no good reason.
Happily, there are people doing things about it.

anti-Semitism made the Third Reich.  Mowing over people's rights in pursuit of
Nerf-World can just as easily turn our government into a Fourth.
--
=============================================================================
"If you shoot at mimes, should you use a silencer?" -- Steven Wright
     __

     /_/

      http://public.surfree.com/urbanek


 
 
 

BATF Annual Inspection Visit

Post by some.. » Fri, 18 Aug 2000 04:00:00


(note I am using an alias for security and privacy concerns)

Before we get too extreme about this, it is good to keep in mind that the BATF
is composed of (emphasis here) people who have to do a lot of difficult and
important jobs.  Adopting the language and rhetoric of the militia movement is
not going to reduce the BATF's interest in our hobby activities.

I have only had extensive contact with only one of these people (so far) as a
result of my LEUP application (now granted).  If this woman is a nazi then my
mother is Adolf Hitler.  She was very friendly, courteous and professional.  She
had standards that had to be met and she helped me meet them.  She told me that,
"We never have any trouble with the rocket people.  You just fall into a system
which really wasn't intended to deal with you."

I didn't think that I could get storage as I live on a small lot in an urban
area.  The inspector offered to give me an attached garage variance but I said I
would prefer to use a shed which is less than 75 feet from my residence and even
closer to a public road.  No problem, no variance required.  It took more than
two years to get my LEUP.  Eigh*** months of that was spent waiting patiently
after I sent in my application with only a canceled check to prove they had
received it.  As the inspector said, "You aren't a high priority for us."

I support the TRA/NAR legal action to reduce the burden.  I don't know the
legalities of likely outcomes but I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of
registration and control system retained.  We don't need a situation where
somebody does attempt an act of terrorism with HPR materials.