NAR vs. NYC Parks Dept. - Part IX

NAR vs. NYC Parks Dept. - Part IX

Post by Matthew Joseph Rosenwasse » Fri, 27 Oct 1995 04:00:00



                                        October 23, 1995
                                        Flushing Meadows Corona Park

Dear Mr. Rosenwasser:

Thank you for your letter concerning rocket flying in Flushing Meadows
Corona Park.

Unfortunately, because of our close proximity to LaGuardia Airport, for
safety purposes, rocket flying is not allowed in Flushing Meadows Corona
Park.

I appreciate your taking time to write.

Sincerely,

Estelle Cooper
Assistant Commissioner
Queens Parks Dept.

 
 
 

NAR vs. NYC Parks Dept. - Part IX

Post by James J. McLaughli » Fri, 27 Oct 1995 04:00:00


Quote:

>                                    October 23, 1995
>                                    Flushing Meadows Corona Park

> Dear Mr. Rosenwasser:

> Thank you for your letter concerning rocket flying in Flushing Meadows
> Corona Park.

> Unfortunately, because of our close proximity to LaGuardia Airport, for
> safety purposes, rocket flying is not allowed in Flushing Meadows Corona
> Park.

> I appreciate your taking time to write.

> Sincerely,

> Estelle Cooper
> Assistant Commissioner
> Queens Parks Dept.

And since when, and by what Act of Congress, was the New York
City Parks Department empowered to enforce aviation safety regulations?

You have a real problem here.  This response is _SO ABSURD_ that it is
clearly a cover or excuse for whatever else they don't want to tell you.

Under FAA rules, FAR Part 101, you are absolutely entitled to launch
annything G powered or under weighing less than 3.3 lbs., with mere
notice to FAA.  You don't even need permission from FAA.

Please take the time to contact Bob Kaplow in Illinois, who reportedly
has gotten waivers from FAA for operations right under O'Hare approach
patterns and runway ops.  If it can be done at O'Hare, it certainly can be done at LGA.
Bob posts here frequently.

Also contact John Cato, who has substantial FAA contacts.

I may be able to help you as well.  We may have finally solved the Sheridan
launch site problem here, and have developed good FAA contacts in doing
that, too. If you get a waiver or permission from FAA, you can take that
back to the esteemed Estelle Cooper nad advise her that there is no FAA
objection.

And in the interim, go up to Bethel and fly with Tripoli Conn. They are
good folks. You may have a long wait for Flushing Meadow park.

Jim McLaughlin                     These opinions are mine, mine, mine!
                                   And not anybody else's. So there.


(Ex-patriate New Yorker, who lived in the Bronx under an LGA appraoch and
went to school for a while in Queens right near Flusing Meadow Park. That
was a long time ago).

 
 
 

NAR vs. NYC Parks Dept. - Part IX

Post by David Fun » Sat, 28 Oct 1995 04:00:00



Quote:

>> Dear Mr. Rosenwasser:

>> Thank you for your letter concerning rocket flying in Flushing Meadows
>> Corona Park.
>> Sincerely,

>> Estelle Cooper
>> Assistant Commissioner
>> Queens Parks Dept.

>And since when, and by what Act of Congress, was the New York
>City Parks Department empowered to enforce aviation safety regulations?

>You have a real problem here.  This response is _SO ABSURD_ that it is
>clearly a cover or excuse for whatever else they don't want to tell you.

No, you have a problem.  An authority problem.  The landlord says no.
This has nothing to do with what anyone else in the country has done.
Besides, IF you had taken the time to check, you would have found that in
all the examples that you cited on those who abtained "difficult"
waivers, that they had PERMISION to be on the property where the launch
was to occur.  Big difference.  The Queens Parks Dept. has not extended
that permision.


#include <disclaimer.std>

 
 
 

NAR vs. NYC Parks Dept. - Part IX

Post by March A. Brin » Sun, 29 Oct 1995 04:00:00



Quote:

>And since when, and by what Act of Congress, was the New York
>City Parks Department empowered to enforce aviation safety regulations?

Since the site in question is about 2 miles or so from the aeroport. Its
right across the street from Shea Stadium, which, if you've ever seen a
baseball telecast from there, you would know that rather large
aerocraft are known to descent through the area...

Quote:
>Under FAA rules, FAR Part 101, you are absolutely entitled to launch
>annything G powered or under weighing less than 3.3 lbs., with mere
>notice to FAA.  You don't even need permission from FAA.

Provided you're outside of 5 miles of an active aeroport, right?

Quote:
>And in the interim, go up to Bethel and fly with Tripoli Conn. They are
>good folks. You may have a long wait for Flushing Meadow park.

I >know< they would welcome you to their launches. I can say this because
I am one of them!

                                        Marc

 
 
 

NAR vs. NYC Parks Dept. - Part IX

Post by Larry Smi » Tue, 31 Oct 1995 04:00:00


Quote:


>>And since when, and by what Act of Congress, was the New York
>>City Parks Department empowered to enforce aviation safety regulations?
>>You have a real problem here.  This response is _SO ABSURD_ that it is
>>clearly a cover or excuse for whatever else they don't want to tell you.
>No, you have a problem.  An authority problem.  The landlord says no.
>This has nothing to do with what anyone else in the country has done.

Then why did they claim it was because of the airport?  I think
that _you_ have a problem.  A _reading_ problem.  James is quite
correct, the park should not be claiming it is forbidding rockets
because of the airport if the rocketeer is in compliance with FAA
rules regarding launches near airports, as James himself noted with
regards to another launch area near Chicago's O'Hare Airport, a
_vastly_ busier airport than La Guardia.

And furthermore the park authority is _not_ "the landlord" - it
is a public agency tasked to provide management of the park and to
make it's facilities available to _all_ users.  If it has a problem
with rocket flights then it has a responsibility to be forthcoming
about what that problem _is_ so the _citizen_ who wishes to use the
facilities has a clear and honest chance to _address_ those problems
in a manner satisfactory to all.  The problem here is not that the
FAA has a problem with launches from the park, the problem here is
that the park authority _thinks_ there _might_ be a problem with
the airport and doesn't care to invest any effort in confirming or
denying it when a simple denial letter will insure they cannot be
held legally liable for such use.  This is bureaucratic laziness.

I frankly have little regard for someone who regards his rights
so lightly as to dismiss them at first blush without even the mini-
mal gumption as to demand a _valid_ explanation.  We are citizens,
not sheep, the gov't is our employed _manager_ of public resources,
not the shepard.  It is _accountable_ to _us_, not the other way
around, sir!  Stick to your guns, Matthew.  Illegitimus non carbor-
undum.

--

  The attempt to justify an evil deed has  perhaps more pernicious consequences
  than the evil deed itself.  The justification of a past crime is the planting
  and cultivation of future crimes. -- Eric Hoffer  Digital Unix: 64 bit _now_.

 
 
 

NAR vs. NYC Parks Dept. - Part IX

Post by kaplo.. » Tue, 31 Oct 1995 04:00:00



Quote:

>> Unfortunately, because of our close proximity to LaGuardia Airport, for
>> safety purposes, rocket flying is not allowed in Flushing Meadows Corona
>> Park.

> Under FAA rules, FAR Part 101, you are absolutely entitled to launch
> annything G powered or under weighing less than 3.3 lbs., with mere
> notice to FAA.  You don't even need permission from FAA.

> Please take the time to contact Bob Kaplow in Illinois, who reportedly
> has gotten waivers from FAA for operations right under O'Hare approach
> patterns and runway ops.  If it can be done at O'Hare, it certainly can be done at LGA.
> Bob posts here frequently.

Contact the airport tower, and give them the location you want to fly from.
Ask them where the bottom of the TCA is in that area. Also ask them what the
minimum altitude that any flight path might be over your proposed site.
Tell them that you want to fly model rockets, which under FAR 101.1 are
exempt from FAA control from that sight. Tell them that you want to be nice
and not fly into their TCA even thou you do not have to do this by law. Ask
them for a written letter confirming that what you want to do is in fact
legal.

Now send a copy of this letter to the BOZOs who turned you down, showing
them that you have the law and the FAA on your side. Offer to limit yourself
to altitudes that will not in any way interfere with airport operations.,
per whatever the FAA tells you in their letter.

If you are a resident of whatever government agency controls this land, then
go to their next board meeting and complain like hell that they are denying
you your right to use the sight. Take a copy of the FAR part 101, the letter
you get from the FAA, and the denial letter from the BOZO. Once you get up
and get the floor, don't shut up until you get what you want. Keep going
back every week or every month or whatever until you get what you are
entitled to.

Now, if you are a mile of the end of the runway into the airport, go find
another sight and forget all of this. You don't want to launch there
anyway...


USPO:   HealthCare COMPARE Corp, 5ISD, 3200 Highland Av. Downers Grove, IL 60515
TPC:    (708) 241-7919 x5327            ICBM:   4149'48" North 880'51" West

When all you have is a gun, every problem tends to look like the BATF.

Disclaimer: If this message is caught or killed, the secretary will disavow
any knowledge of my actions. These bits will self destruct in 5 seconds....

 
 
 

NAR vs. NYC Parks Dept. - Part IX

Post by kaplo.. » Wed, 01 Nov 1995 04:00:00


Quote:

> Then why did they claim it was because of the airport?  I think
> that _you_ have a problem.  A _reading_ problem.  James is quite
> correct, the park should not be claiming it is forbidding rockets
> because of the airport if the rocketeer is in compliance with FAA
> rules regarding launches near airports, as James himself noted with
> regards to another launch area near Chicago's O'Hare Airport, a
> _vastly_ busier airport than La Guardia.

let me point out that our site is 20 miles from O'Hare, and the 747s are at
3000' or more when they come over our heads. This site is TWO miles from
LaGuardia, where the planes would be only a couple hundred feet in the air.
It does make quite a difference. They would be so low that the local terrain
will hide them until they are right on top of you.

Quote:
> And furthermore the park authority is _not_ "the landlord" - it
> is a public agency tasked to provide management of the park and to
> make it's facilities available to _all_ users.  If it has a problem
> with rocket flights then it has a responsibility to be forthcoming
> about what that problem _is_ so the _citizen_ who wishes to use the
> facilities has a clear and honest chance to _address_ those problems
> in a manner satisfactory to all.  The problem here is not that the

As a landlord, the park authority must use some intelligence in managing
their assets. Until we learned that this park was 2 miles from an airport,
we didn't understand why they were such a pain. Now we do. You wouldn't want
a park to hold a rifle target contest, if a school were right behind it,
would you? I think Matt needs to find a different park, farther from the
airport. The park authority should be willing to offer some suggestions.

Again, contact the FAA, and ask them for suggestions as to where you might
fly that would not be in their way.


USPO:   HealthCare COMPARE Corp, 5ISD, 3200 Highland Av. Downers Grove, IL 60515
TPC:    (708) 241-7919 x5327            ICBM:   4149'48" North 880'51" West

                "Will uninstall Windows 95 for food!"

Disclaimer: If this message is caught or killed, the secretary will disavow
any knowledge of my actions. These bits will self destruct in 5 seconds....