Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by rocketdrago » Thu, 04 Jan 2007 12:25:26



I am looking foe a 24 mm BP booster enngine that is 2 or 3 times
stronger than an Estes D-12. The Estes(E) engines that I see don't come
in 0 delay and I can't find any other 24 mm BP engine that has 0 delay
for a booster engine. Can anyone help?
 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by Eekamous » Thu, 04 Jan 2007 13:07:38


Correct- there isn't an E9-0, and the D12-0 is your most powerful
option for a BP booster motor.

Therefore, your only option is to cluster.

 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by Kurt » Thu, 04 Jan 2007 13:50:30


Quote:

> I am looking foe a 24 mm BP booster enngine that is 2 or 3 times
> stronger than an Estes D-12. The Estes(E) engines that I see don't come
> in 0 delay and I can't find any other 24 mm BP engine that has 0 delay
> for a booster engine. Can anyone help?

There is one option open to you that I have done.  It's against the
safety code so you will only be able to do this on your own and can't
legally fly a model at a sanctioned meet.

Take a drill bit roughly the same size as the I.D. of the E9-P and simply,
slowly twist out the ceramic plug.  Works just fine.  You know you
will be getting to the propellant as it is black in color.  Don't
I repeat, DO NOT use an electric drill because friction could conceivably
set the motor off.  Just twist slowly by hand so as to not create
a large amount of friction and heat. Use a***driver to scrape out the
remnants of the white plug and you're good to go.

I took a relatively light two stage rocket, a Quest Zenith II, made a new
booster to fit the E motor and viola' a model that hits 2800'+.
I flew my first one so much that it wore out and have a second one I just
put a first flight on. I use a very long metalized streamer only and do vent the
sustainer like G. Harry mentions in his book.

The reason, I am told, that they don't make an E9-0 is that Estes is afraid some
stupid father and son team will put it in a too heavy rocket and have an
accident. By using a lightweight two stager, one can get some really high
flights.  It seems to take forever for the Zenith to come down even on a
streamer.  Staging to a C6-7 occurs when the model is out of sight and you can
only hear it stage.  Can just barely hear the ejection but more often than not,
don't hear a thing until the metalized streamer "rattles" to announce the
arrival of the model.  I do have a big open massive field to fly from.

Good luck if you decide to go this route.

 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by Doug Sam » Fri, 05 Jan 2007 02:18:47



Quote:
> I am looking foe a 24 mm BP booster enngine that is 2 or 3 times
> stronger than an Estes D-12. The Estes(E) engines that I see don't come
> in 0 delay and I can't find any other 24 mm BP engine that has 0 delay
> for a booster engine. Can anyone help?

If you need heavy lift, then there are two options:  A BP cluster or an
APCP booster motor.  The latter will require either a staging timer or a
kludge to light the sustainer.  It's been stated that it's possible to
shorten the delay (on a reloadable 24mm motor) and use that to light the
sustainer, but I haven't tried it.

I have done the clustered booster. The key is using a burn string to
ensure the center motor lights so that it will light the sustainer at
burnout.

Here's a pic:
http://home.flash.net/~samily/tuber/utboost-bottom.jpg

Metal loops were attached to the aft centering ring. The burn string
is attached to them and runs under the center motor and around a burn
stick.  When the center motor lights, it burns the string letting the
rocket go. Otherwise, it holds it on the pad to prevent the sustainer
from wrecking.

Doug

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by SpartaChri » Fri, 05 Jan 2007 09:37:34


You could always just use a regular estes motor to ignite the other
motor. The estes ejection charge is BP, and if you use like an E9-3 for
example, when the charge goes off, it should light the upper stage
motor. To ensure it does so, maybe take some BP and mix it with some
clear nailpolish and pour that into the nozzle or something. Then you
will have the motor burn, 3 seconds of coast followed by the ejection
charge igniting the upper stage. Might get you some better altitudes?

I dunno, might be worth a shot. Maybe ground test my thoery first.

Quote:



> > I am looking foe a 24 mm BP booster enngine that is 2 or 3 times
> > stronger than an Estes D-12. The Estes(E) engines that I see don't come
> > in 0 delay and I can't find any other 24 mm BP engine that has 0 delay
> > for a booster engine. Can anyone help?

> If you need heavy lift, then there are two options:  A BP cluster or an
> APCP booster motor.  The latter will require either a staging timer or a
> kludge to light the sustainer.  It's been stated that it's possible to
> shorten the delay (on a reloadable 24mm motor) and use that to light the
> sustainer, but I haven't tried it.

> I have done the clustered booster. The key is using a burn string to
> ensure the center motor lights so that it will light the sustainer at
> burnout.

> Here's a pic:
> http://home.flash.net/~samily/tuber/utboost-bottom.jpg

> Metal loops were attached to the aft centering ring. The burn string
> is attached to them and runs under the center motor and around a burn
> stick.  When the center motor lights, it burns the string letting the
> rocket go. Otherwise, it holds it on the pad to prevent the sustainer
> from wrecking.

> Doug

> --
> Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by rocketdrago » Fri, 05 Jan 2007 10:14:37


I just don't like the 3 sec. of coast. I think I will try doctoring a
E9-P and see if it works. Thank's Chris.  Pyro Pete.
Quote:

> You could always just use a regular estes motor to ignite the other
> motor. The estes ejection charge is BP, and if you use like an E9-3 for
> example, when the charge goes off, it should light the upper stage
> motor. To ensure it does so, maybe take some BP and mix it with some
> clear nailpolish and pour that into the nozzle or something. Then you
> will have the motor burn, 3 seconds of coast followed by the ejection
> charge igniting the upper stage. Might get you some better altitudes?

> I dunno, might be worth a shot. Maybe ground test my thoery first.




> > > I am looking foe a 24 mm BP booster enngine that is 2 or 3 times
> > > stronger than an Estes D-12. The Estes(E) engines that I see don't come
> > > in 0 delay and I can't find any other 24 mm BP engine that has 0 delay
> > > for a booster engine. Can anyone help?

> > If you need heavy lift, then there are two options:  A BP cluster or an
> > APCP booster motor.  The latter will require either a staging timer or a
> > kludge to light the sustainer.  It's been stated that it's possible to
> > shorten the delay (on a reloadable 24mm motor) and use that to light the
> > sustainer, but I haven't tried it.

> > I have done the clustered booster. The key is using a burn string to
> > ensure the center motor lights so that it will light the sustainer at
> > burnout.

> > Here's a pic:
> > http://home.flash.net/~samily/tuber/utboost-bottom.jpg

> > Metal loops were attached to the aft centering ring. The burn string
> > is attached to them and runs under the center motor and around a burn
> > stick.  When the center motor lights, it burns the string letting the
> > rocket go. Otherwise, it holds it on the pad to prevent the sustainer
> > from wrecking.

> > Doug

> > --
> > Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by Bob Krec » Sat, 06 Jan 2007 09:34:26


The reason why Estes did not put the E9-0 into production after they
certified it was that was a terrible booster.  The initial thrust of a
D12-0 is 30 N vs the E9-0 at 19 N.  The bottom line is that the D12-0
booster can lift a 50% heavier rocket off the pad than a E9-0!  The
D12-0 is a far more powerful booster than the never produced E-9.

http://www.FoundCollection.com/
http://www.FoundCollection.com/

Your suggestion to increase the core depth of the E-9 by drilling it
out not only violates the NAR and TRA safety code, but it also highly
increases the probability of a CATO.  If you increase the core depth of
the motor to increase the initial burning area of the motor, you will
greatly increase the internal pressure of the motor.  Go too far and it
goes boom.

I'm reasonably sure that if Estes could have increased the core depth
to boost the initial thrust they would have done so,  Estes has a lot
of unhappy customer who have bought the Estes Maxi kits and overbuilt
them, inserted an E9 and watched their many hours of effort crash and
shatter because this woefully underpowered engine didn't have enough
omph to get it to an aerodynamically stable velocity before it got off
the rod.

Bob

Quote:


> > I am looking foe a 24 mm BP booster enngine that is 2 or 3 times
> > stronger than an Estes D-12. The Estes(E) engines that I see don't come
> > in 0 delay and I can't find any other 24 mm BP engine that has 0 delay
> > for a booster engine. Can anyone help?

> There is one option open to you that I have done.  It's against the
> safety code so you will only be able to do this on your own and can't
> legally fly a model at a sanctioned meet.

> Take a drill bit roughly the same size as the I.D. of the E9-P and simply,
> slowly twist out the ceramic plug.  Works just fine.  You know you
> will be getting to the propellant as it is black in color.  Don't
> I repeat, DO NOT use an electric drill because friction could conceivably
> set the motor off.  Just twist slowly by hand so as to not create
> a large amount of friction and heat. Use a***driver to scrape out the
> remnants of the white plug and you're good to go.

> I took a relatively light two stage rocket, a Quest Zenith II, made a new
> booster to fit the E motor and viola' a model that hits 2800'+.
> I flew my first one so much that it wore out and have a second one I just
> put a first flight on. I use a very long metalized streamer only and do vent the
> sustainer like G. Harry mentions in his book.

> The reason, I am told, that they don't make an E9-0 is that Estes is afraid some
> stupid father and son team will put it in a too heavy rocket and have an
> accident. By using a lightweight two stager, one can get some really high
> flights.  It seems to take forever for the Zenith to come down even on a
> streamer.  Staging to a C6-7 occurs when the model is out of sight and you can
> only hear it stage.  Can just barely hear the ejection but more often than not,
> don't hear a thing until the metalized streamer "rattles" to announce the
> arrival of the model.  I do have a big open massive field to fly from.

> Good luck if you decide to go this route.

 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by Rolan » Sat, 06 Jan 2007 15:37:41


Bob Krech schreef:

Quote:
> Your suggestion to increase the core depth of the E-9 by drilling it
> out not only violates the NAR and TRA safety code, but it also highly
> increases the probability of a CATO.  If you increase the core depth of
> the motor to increase the initial burning area of the motor, you will
> greatly increase the internal pressure of the motor.  Go too far and it
> goes boom.

You're right about increasing the core depth but what i read in his
message is that he drills from the other side, through the delay.
That does not change the thrust profile and gives you an E9-0.
 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by Kurt » Sat, 06 Jan 2007 20:48:29


Fool,

   Read my note.  I only suggested drilling out the ceramic PLUG, NOT THE
NOZZLE!! for sustainer ignition.  I didn't say a damn thing about increasing
the core depth at the other end of the motor.  Also the E9-0 works fine in a
lightweight two stage model with spectacular streamer flights.  Your reason that
they didn't produce it is a good explanation.
   What I do in a private field is nobody's business and I fly the same model
at sanctioned launches with a spacer and a D12-0.  What the hell you been
smokin'? I still can't believe you read into the piece I said to drill the core.
That is not true.

Quote:

> The reason why Estes did not put the E9-0 into production after they
> certified it was that was a terrible booster.  The initial thrust of a
> D12-0 is 30 N vs the E9-0 at 19 N.  The bottom line is that the D12-0
> booster can lift a 50% heavier rocket off the pad than a E9-0!  The
> D12-0 is a far more powerful booster than the never produced E-9.

> http://www.FoundCollection.com/
> http://www.FoundCollection.com/

> Your suggestion to increase the core depth of the E-9 by drilling it
> out not only violates the NAR and TRA safety code, but it also highly
> increases the probability of a CATO.  If you increase the core depth of
> the motor to increase the initial burning area of the motor, you will
> greatly increase the internal pressure of the motor.  Go too far and it
> goes boom.

> I'm reasonably sure that if Estes could have increased the core depth
> to boost the initial thrust they would have done so,  Estes has a lot
> of unhappy customer who have bought the Estes Maxi kits and overbuilt
> them, inserted an E9 and watched their many hours of effort crash and
> shatter because this woefully underpowered engine didn't have enough
> omph to get it to an aerodynamically stable velocity before it got off
> the rod.

> Bob



>>> I am looking foe a 24 mm BP booster enngine that is 2 or 3 times
>>> stronger than an Estes D-12. The Estes(E) engines that I see don't come
>>> in 0 delay and I can't find any other 24 mm BP engine that has 0 delay
>>> for a booster engine. Can anyone help?

>> There is one option open to you that I have done.  It's against the
>> safety code so you will only be able to do this on your own and can't
>> legally fly a model at a sanctioned meet.

>> Take a drill bit roughly the same size as the I.D. of the E9-P and simply,
>> slowly twist out the ceramic plug.  Works just fine.  You know you
>> will be getting to the propellant as it is black in color.  Don't
>> I repeat, DO NOT use an electric drill because friction could conceivably
>> set the motor off.  Just twist slowly by hand so as to not create
>> a large amount of friction and heat. Use a***driver to scrape out the
>> remnants of the white plug and you're good to go.

>> I took a relatively light two stage rocket, a Quest Zenith II, made a new
>> booster to fit the E motor and viola' a model that hits 2800'+.
>> I flew my first one so much that it wore out and have a second one I just
>> put a first flight on. I use a very long metalized streamer only and do vent the
>> sustainer like G. Harry mentions in his book.

>> The reason, I am told, that they don't make an E9-0 is that Estes is afraid some
>> stupid father and son team will put it in a too heavy rocket and have an
>> accident. By using a lightweight two stager, one can get some really high
>> flights.  It seems to take forever for the Zenith to come down even on a
>> streamer.  Staging to a C6-7 occurs when the model is out of sight and you can
>> only hear it stage.  Can just barely hear the ejection but more often than not,
>> don't hear a thing until the metalized streamer "rattles" to announce the
>> arrival of the model.  I do have a big open massive field to fly from.

>> Good luck if you decide to go this route.

 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by Kurt » Sat, 06 Jan 2007 21:11:20


Quote:

> Bob Krech schreef:

>> Your suggestion to increase the core depth of the E-9 by drilling it
>> out not only violates the NAR and TRA safety code, but it also highly
>> increases the probability of a CATO.  If you increase the core depth of
>> the motor to increase the initial burning area of the motor, you will
>> greatly increase the internal pressure of the motor.  Go too far and it
>> goes boom.

> You're right about increasing the core depth but what i read in his
> message is that he drills from the other side, through the delay.
> That does not change the thrust profile and gives you an E9-0.

I said ceramic plug not NOZZLE!  What Krech says about messing with the
nozzle and thrust is true.  As long as it is used in a lightweight
model there are no problems.  Core it from the nozzle end and indeed
over pressurization would be a very big issue and failure rate would
go up.  Probably dramatically.  I did not recommend that.

                       Kurt

 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by Eekamous » Sat, 06 Jan 2007 22:13:43



Quote:
> Fool,

>   Read my note.  I only suggested drilling out the ceramic PLUG, NOT THE NOZZLE!! for sustainer
> ignition.  I didn't say a damn thing about increasing

FWIW, I wouldn't recommend using a drill bit, as you recommend, to remove
the clay cap from an E9-P.

First, the clay cap is soft and can easily be removed by a pointed plastic
or wood dowel.  But mainly, using a drill bit to scrape away the clay cap is
risky, as it could produce a spark.  The chances of this happening are ex-
tremely remote, probably 1 in hundreds of thousands, but the consequences
if it did could be severe.

 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by Kurt » Sun, 07 Jan 2007 00:25:01


Quote:



>>Fool,

>>  Read my note.  I only suggested drilling out the ceramic PLUG, NOT THE NOZZLE!! for sustainer
>>ignition.  I didn't say a damn thing about increasing

> FWIW, I wouldn't recommend using a drill bit, as you recommend, to remove
> the clay cap from an E9-P.

> First, the clay cap is soft and can easily be removed by a pointed plastic
> or wood dowel.  But mainly, using a drill bit to scrape away the clay cap is
> risky, as it could produce a spark.  The chances of this happening are ex-
> tremely remote, probably 1 in hundreds of thousands, but the consequences
> if it did could be severe.

Sure you could do that but it would take a long time. Twisting by hand,
slowly and watching to where the tip touches the propellant means to
stop and use another implement.  Indeed a full welder's face mask with a
clear impact resistant lens, leather gloves and appropriate clothing
along with an open workspace would provide significant protection.
Gives me an idea to take a prepared motor and ignite it from the
opposite end with a launch switch and see how it burns.  With no nozzle
would probably burn like a flare.
Listen, if one is not mature or careful or obsessive compulsive about
the rules, don't do this.  As stated I only fly this configuration solo
at a private field and only fly at a sanctioned meet with the D12-0.
 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by Eekamous » Sun, 07 Jan 2007 02:09:59



Quote:
>> First, the clay cap is soft and can easily be removed by a pointed plastic
>> or wood dowel.

> Sure you could do that but it would take a long time. Twisting by hand,
> slowly and watching to where the tip touches the propellant means to stop and use another
> implement.

No.  It takes no more than a few seconds, which leads me to think
you've never actually performed the procedure that you're recommending.

I KNOW, because I've done it - many times.

The clay cap is of a crumbly consistency, and is EASILY removed, in
just a few seconds, with the tip of a sharpened wood dowel.  The BP
propellant is very hard and dense in comparison and can't be gouged
or chipped with a wood dowel unless you're applying Hurculean pressure.

If you had actually ever DONE this, you would know.

Finally, I think you're way off base calling Bob a "fool", especially in
light of the dubious, unnecessary and potentially dangerous method of
using a metallic drill bit that you're recommending to beginners.

 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by Bob Kapl » Sun, 07 Jan 2007 03:18:18


Quote:

>    Read my note.  I only suggested drilling out the ceramic PLUG, NOT THE

You don't even need a drill for that. A flat blade screwdriver does fine.
The S8 internats fliers regularly modified D12-3s by removing the cap and
ejection charge but leaving the delay. They liked them better than the
plugged motors, which never seem to be available when you need them.

--
  Bob Kaplow   NAR # 18L   >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle:      http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
    www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org

        S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver!

 
 
 

Is there a 24 mm booster engines beyond D-12.

Post by shreadvecto » Sun, 07 Jan 2007 03:55:50


The D12 has a different thrust curve than the D11. Very small
difference, but it is different. I think the core is slightly shallower
on the D11.

Just like the C11 vs. E9. Same diameter nozzle, slightly different core
depth producing different thrust curve.

Quote:


> >    Read my note.  I only suggested drilling out the ceramic PLUG, NOT THE

> You don't even need a drill for that. A flat blade screwdriver does fine.
> The S8 internats fliers regularly modified D12-3s by removing the cap and
> ejection charge but leaving the delay. They liked them better than the
> plugged motors, which never seem to be available when you need them.

> --
>   Bob Kaplow   NAR # 18L   >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
> Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
>     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org

>    S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver!