Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by Steve Sier » Fri, 02 May 2003 01:35:08



I have finished a few things with Hut Crystal Coat and so far
I'm not really impressed. Is it just me or does the finish wear
off quickly for everyone. I have used it on gavels and pens
and it seems with just a little use the finish wears off. I have
tried up to 4 coats with little improvement. Most of what I
have used it on has been walnut with some maple inlays (is it
called inlaying on turnings?). I always sand to 400 grit then
polish with steel wool before applying the finish. I apply the
finish with clean cotton pads, rotating to a new section when
pad becomes stiff.  What am I doing wrong?

--
Steve Sierp
Sullivan's Ford Custom Woodworking
North Vernon, Indiana

 
 
 

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by Steve Sier » Fri, 02 May 2003 01:40:57


That should read "Help with Hut Crystal Coat"
Damn I hate this cast!

 
 
 

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by Russ Fairfie » Fri, 02 May 2003 03:06:54


Friction Polishes are not as easy to use as the adverti***t say they are, or
as woodturners think they should be.

Your problems could be anything from not sanding to a fine enough grit, to
using too much of the product, to not running it fast enough or long enough to
get it hot enough, to changing to a new patch on the cotton cloth for each
application. A common problem is not enough heat to flow the shellac and burn
off the waxes and oils.  From your description, I would suspect that you using
too much product, and aren't getting the application hot enough.

Go to: http://www.FoundCollection.com/

for a description on how I use a Friction Polish. This isn't the only way to do
it, but I know that it works very well. If you are still having problems, ask
your question again.

I don't know your definition of "quickly". It could be that your expectations
for the finish are too high. A pen with a shellac finish should be hard and
fairly durable with a life measured in weeks of daily use, not days.

Russ Fairfield
Post Falls, Idaho
Russ Fairfield
Post Falls, Idaho

 
 
 

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by AHilto » Fri, 02 May 2003 03:39:28


First: I don't recommend actual steel wool for any kind of woodworking
(unless you're trying to go for a finish that might have red/black streaks
in it due to the rusting OR if you're trying to "stain" wood by soaking the
steel wool in a solution and then applying that to wood in some way).  I
either use a synthetic steel wool or a dishwashing pad that's not made of
actual steel or the 3M product too.

Second:  I think you might be staying in one spot for too long ("when pad
becomes stiff") when you're applying the finish.  If you're having to stay
in one spot for very long (more than a few seconds) before you get a shine
then you may have applied too much to the rag. I try to keep an easy and
smooth back and forth motion over the wood as long as I can feel a bit of
heat through the rag all the while.  I stop when I can see the shine build
up. It'll be dull at first and then with heat it'll shine. I don't worry
about feeling the rag to see if it's stiff or not. Not that this is the only
way to do it, it's just what works for me.

Third and most importantly:  Shellac-based friction polishes ALL wear off
quickly (a few weeks with constant use).  Crystal Coat is bad about that.
It's also not as high-build or shiny as Mylands and others.  I use it but
only on things that don't get a lot of handling but are small and need the
shine. Once I use my supply of it up, then I won't get any more.
Lacquer-based friction polishes hold up better but still wear off.

The key to using a friction polish in a piece that gets a lot of handling,
in my mind at least, is to put something under that friction polish that
will still protect the wood from some use and give it a little bit of a
shine as the friction polish wears off.  Often, the user will not know that
the friction polish has worn off!  That something for me is Pure Tung Oil.
It protects the wood and strengthens some woods nicely (since they are so
thin sometimes) as it dries and cures.  The friction polish, to me, is just
there to sell it and give the new purchaser the "Wow factor" to those that
they show it off to.  I DO tell every buyer and have it printed on each
items' tag that the finish will wear off and be replaced with their own skin
oils/sweat/etc. and it makes it a truely personalized item. It's worked over
300 times on pens alone for me (that's nothing to the professional pen
makers I know <g>).  The majority of those pens are in constant use every
day and they've held up well so far.  The finish does come off and they get
worried, even though they were told that it would, but the rest of the
finish wears off quickly after that and the underlying Tung Oil along with
their own oils develop a great patina.

Now, there are other finishes that you could apply other than a friction
polish that'll REALLY hold up (CA glue, lacquers of all kinds,  etc.) but
I'll let those experts voice their opinions on those.  I've tried some of
them off and on but either haven't liked the look or it was just too
expensive or time consuming to mess with on these types of items.  I'm very
much into lots of different types of finishes for other things but that's
beyond the scope of these kinds of items.

- Andrew


Quote:
> I have finished a few things with Hut Crystal Coat and so far
> I'm not really impressed. Is it just me or does the finish wear
> off quickly for everyone. I have used it on gavels and pens
> and it seems with just a little use the finish wears off. I have
> tried up to 4 coats with little improvement. Most of what I
> have used it on has been walnut with some maple inlays (is it
> called inlaying on turnings?). I always sand to 400 grit then
> polish with steel wool before applying the finish. I apply the
> finish with clean cotton pads, rotating to a new section when
> pad becomes stiff.  What am I doing wrong?

> --
> Steve Sierp
> Sullivan's Ford Custom Woodworking
> North Vernon, Indiana

 
 
 

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by Steve Sier » Fri, 02 May 2003 03:47:01


Quote:

> Friction Polishes are not as easy to use as the adverti***t say they are, or
> as woodturners think they should be.

> Your problems could be anything from not sanding to a fine enough grit, to
> using too much of the product, to not running it fast enough or long enough to
> get it hot enough, to changing to a new patch on the cotton cloth for each
> application. A common problem is not enough heat to flow the shellac and burn
> off the waxes and oils.  From your description, I would suspect that you using
> too much product, and aren't getting the application hot enough.

> Go to: http://www.FoundCollection.com/

> for a description on how I use a Friction Polish. This isn't the only way to do
> it, but I know that it works very well. If you are still having problems, ask
> your question again.

> I don't know your definition of "quickly". It could be that your expectations
> for the finish are too high. A pen with a shellac finish should be hard and
> fairly durable with a life measured in weeks of daily use, not days.

> Russ Fairfield
> Post Falls, Idaho

Thanks Russ,

 It sounds like I have not been sanding fine enough. I will try going on up with the
sand paper. I apply it with the lathe off and wipe on a very thin coat.  Then I run the
lath 1960 rpm. I quickly found that I needed to have a leather pad under the cotton pad
I use for buffing. Only took one time burning the tip of my index finger to learn that one.
I will also try not rotating the pad as often.

--
Steve Sierp
Sullivan's Ford Custom Woodworking
North Vernon, Indiana

 
 
 

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by AHilto » Fri, 02 May 2003 04:56:13


Russ,

Quote:
> application. A common problem is not enough heat to flow the shellac and
burn
> off the waxes and oils.

What do you mean by this?  Why would you want to burn off the waxes and oils
that make up a friction polish?

- Andrew

 
 
 

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by AHilto » Fri, 02 May 2003 05:01:27


Steve,

Quote:
> lath 1960 rpm. I quickly found that I needed to have a leather pad under
the cotton pad
> I use for buffing. Only took one time burning the tip of my index finger

to learn that one.

There's a major problem right there.  If you're getting it hot enough to
make your finger hurt, then you're either pressing too hard or staying in
one place too long.  It should be warm, not hot, with a double or triple
thickness of a cotton t-shirt material.  Very much like sanding is to wood,
too much heat is not good for finishes like you're using. You're breaking it
down with that much heat.

- Andrew

 
 
 

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by RikC » Fri, 02 May 2003 05:24:45


Steve,

I go from 120/150 grit to 1200/1500 grit. Going this fine especially in
smaller projects gives it a shine all it's own.

I also use non loading sandpaper.

Online Industrial Supply is where I get my paper. Their prices are very
good.

http://www.onlineindustrialsupply.com/index.html

HTH

rik

--

Padded room with a view
                                   RWC3

 
 
 

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by Chuc » Fri, 02 May 2003 09:16:26


On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:35:08 -0500, "Steve Sierp"

Quote:

>I have finished a few things with Hut Crystal Coat and so far
>I'm not really impressed. Is it just me or does the finish wear
>off quickly for everyone.

Steve,

I've been trying to get this stuff to work worth a ***for about 18
months now, with little luck.  It looks great, as long as you don't
touch it.  

Do yourself a favor and get away from the friction finishes.  Best
"friction finish" I've found so far is a coat of cellulose sanding
sealer, buffed with a paper towel, and followed by a couple of coats
of Butcher's Bowling Alley Wax or something similar, like Johnson's
Paste Wax..

If you want a better, longer-lasting finish, try Waterlox.  I just
started using this stuff recently, and I really love it. The most
versatile finish I've ever used.

--
Chuck *#:^)
chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply.
<><

September 11, 2001 - Never Forget

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Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by Steve Sier » Fri, 02 May 2003 08:46:34


Plenty of food for thought here. Thanks for all the info.

--
Steve Sierp
Sullivan's Ford Custom Woodworking
North Vernon, Indiana

 
 
 

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by Darrell Feltmat » Fri, 02 May 2003 11:05:43


Steve
I have used Crystal Coat on a couple of hundred pens as well as key
rings fobs, ornaments and the like. First sand to 1500 or 2000 grit and
clean off the dust with the swipe of a rag. Then apply an oil as an
undercoat and heat it in by turning the piece at 2500 or more and slowly
advancing a cloth along it. At this speed minimal pressure still gets a
good friction heat going. With the lathe stopped apply the Crystal Coat
and turn the lathe back on at 2500 or better and slowly advance the
cloth along it to heat the polish and harden it. Done. Actually, I end
to turn, sand and finish small items like this at 3500. It sure speeds
things up and you do not have to worry about catches. the piece simply
disintegrates :-)
--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS, Canada
http://www.roundthewoods.com
 
 
 

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by Rob McConachi » Fri, 02 May 2003 13:37:23


Interesting reading in this thread...

it seems that my finish has had too much pressure when I put it on as I have
nearly burned my fingers once or twice.

I have just started turning (within the last 2 weeks).  but, I did a lot of
research and found a formula that looks pretty nice and is really rather
inexpensive as a pen finish.

bear in mind I have not used pens long enough to see how the finish lasts
over time.  it is possible that I may change it later.

but, for now, the finish is from an old copy of wood magazine (#106 or #108)
I don't remember.

the formula is:
1 oz shellac
1 oz boiled linseed oil
1 oz denatured ***

for a total cost of about $16 for 3 quarts of finish (mixed in batches of 9
oz total).

I had all these in my shop and just mixed them up and they looked really
nice.  but, when I tried to apply the Hut White PPP, the shine was just not
as bright.  so, either I cant get the ppp to finish as desired or my mixed
formula is just better.

any opinions would be most welcomed.

also please bear in mind that i am no expert, just somebody who found
something that looked like it worked nicely.

Rob


Quote:
> I have finished a few things with Hut Crystal Coat and so far
> I'm not really impressed. Is it just me or does the finish wear
> off quickly for everyone. I have used it on gavels and pens
> and it seems with just a little use the finish wears off. I have
> tried up to 4 coats with little improvement. Most of what I
> have used it on has been walnut with some maple inlays (is it
> called inlaying on turnings?). I always sand to 400 grit then
> polish with steel wool before applying the finish. I apply the
> finish with clean cotton pads, rotating to a new section when
> pad becomes stiff.  What am I doing wrong?

> --
> Steve Sierp
> Sullivan's Ford Custom Woodworking
> North Vernon, Indiana

 
 
 

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by Randy Rhin » Fri, 02 May 2003 23:15:26


I use Crystal Coat a lot for smaller items. But, in my opinion, they use
too much wax. When I get new bottle, I shake it up so the wax is mixed
in, then pour half into an old bottle. Then mix up a bit of Super Blond
shellac and fill the bottle. The stuff lasts twice as long also.

rr

Quote:

> Interesting reading in this thread...

> it seems that my finish has had too much pressure when I put it on as I have
> nearly burned my fingers once or twice.

> I have just started turning (within the last 2 weeks).  but, I did a lot of
> research and found a formula that looks pretty nice and is really rather
> inexpensive as a pen finish.

> bear in mind I have not used pens long enough to see how the finish lasts
> over time.  it is possible that I may change it later.

> but, for now, the finish is from an old copy of wood magazine (#106 or #108)
> I don't remember.

> the formula is:
> 1 oz shellac
> 1 oz boiled linseed oil
> 1 oz denatured ***

> for a total cost of about $16 for 3 quarts of finish (mixed in batches of 9
> oz total).

> I had all these in my shop and just mixed them up and they looked really
> nice.  but, when I tried to apply the Hut White PPP, the shine was just not
> as bright.  so, either I cant get the ppp to finish as desired or my mixed
> formula is just better.

> any opinions would be most welcomed.

> also please bear in mind that i am no expert, just somebody who found
> something that looked like it worked nicely.

> Rob



>>I have finished a few things with Hut Crystal Coat and so far
>>I'm not really impressed. Is it just me or does the finish wear
>>off quickly for everyone. I have used it on gavels and pens
>>and it seems with just a little use the finish wears off. I have
>>tried up to 4 coats with little improvement. Most of what I
>>have used it on has been walnut with some maple inlays (is it
>>called inlaying on turnings?). I always sand to 400 grit then
>>polish with steel wool before applying the finish. I apply the
>>finish with clean cotton pads, rotating to a new section when
>>pad becomes stiff.  What am I doing wrong?

>>--
>>Steve Sierp
>>Sullivan's Ford Custom Woodworking
>>North Vernon, Indiana

 
 
 

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by Gre » Sat, 03 May 2003 01:21:39


Steve, Russ and others,

I have used the Hut CC and other friction polishes on many pens, with
success. However, I don't think the problem here is necessarily the
sanding, or the heat used in applying it. Rather, it sounds like there
is no sealer under the finish.  Do an experiment - treat both barrels
the exact same, sanding through whatever grit you're using, or higher.
 On one pen barrel, apply some type of sealer. I highly recommend thin
CA, but you can use whatever sealer you want.  Sand the barrel with
the sealer, then apply your friction polish on both barrels.  Note
that multiple coats of friction polish don't do a whole lot.  Now set
both barrels aside for a few days, without touching.  You'll probably
see the barrel without the sealer dull fairly quickly, even without
use.

As Russ said, you don't want to use too much friction polish, as it
can get streaky, leaving concentrical rings.  These can usually be
buffed away, or turn the lathe off, and while the rag and barrel is
still hot, run the rag very quicly along the axis of the barrel.
Subsequent coats of friction polish can also help remove these rings,
but again, don't use too much of it per application.

Don't think I'm not emphasizing the importance of sanding.  That is
critical, especially on pens.  I love using micromesh, as it produces
that nice 'chatoyance' that just seems to make a pen glow.

Personally, I use thin CA as my main finish, followed up by the home
brew friction polish, then buffed, and finally, a coat of Renaissance
wax on top of the entire pen.  The Renaissance wax helps to keep
fingerprints off.

A good finish on pens can make a huge difference, obviously.  I try to
make that one of my strongest selling points on my pens, and people
seem to really like my finishes.  Most people do prefer the highest
gloss possible on a pen.  I haven't tried the Waterlox, and I probably
will, but so far the CA finish is the most durable and glossiest I've
seen, personally.  Hope this helps.

Greg

Quote:

> Friction Polishes are not as easy to use as the adverti***t say they are, or
> as woodturners think they should be.

> Your problems could be anything from not sanding to a fine enough grit, to
> using too much of the product, to not running it fast enough or long enough to
> get it hot enough, to changing to a new patch on the cotton cloth for each
> application. A common problem is not enough heat to flow the shellac and burn
> off the waxes and oils.  From your description, I would suspect that you using
> too much product, and aren't getting the application hot enough.

> Go to: http://www.FoundCollection.com/

> for a description on how I use a Friction Polish. This isn't the only way to do
> it, but I know that it works very well. If you are still having problems, ask
> your question again.

> I don't know your definition of "quickly". It could be that your expectations
> for the finish are too high. A pen with a shellac finish should be hard and
> fairly durable with a life measured in weeks of daily use, not days.

> Russ Fairfield
> Post Falls, Idaho

 
 
 

Hepl with Hut crystal coat

Post by Richard Hatto » Sat, 03 May 2003 05:14:40



Quote:
> Personally, I use thin CA as my main finish, followed up by the home
> brew friction polish, then buffed, and finally, a coat of Renaissance
> wax on top of the entire pen.  The Renaissance wax helps to keep
> fingerprints off.

Greg,
I am intrigued, how do you actually use thin CA as a finish without getting
your cloth/fingers stuck to the pen?
--
Richard Hatton
Hertfordshire, UK

(remove "nojunk" from address if responding by email)