Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by Arc » Sun, 18 Nov 2007 05:33:42



Sometime ago a fellow woodturner, well off and ostensibly a fine
gentleman related a disturbing gloat. At least it disturbed me and I
believe it would be disturbing to most of you here. He had offered the
widow of a recently deceased  woodturner $8.00 for his Glaser and Sorby
bowl gouges and she accepted. She is not too well off, but he saw
nothing wrong. He was smug and even laughed during his gloat. True, he
didn't know the deceased, but should that matter?

I reckon ethics are in the conscience of the buyer, so I will skip that.
However I wonder if your widowed spouse wouldn't assume that your $50
boxed set of Harbor Freights would be worth much more than your grimy
old Glaser, and as for that worthless thingamajig full of dirty water
(Tormek) she would likely say "take it if you want it". Then there's the
bereaved spouse who way overvalues 'old Joe's' tools because he loved
them so.

I haven't and probably most of you haven't either, but we should make
our spouse or somebody knowledgeable about the value of our tools.
Better would be to inventory and price out our tools conservatively and
make a fellow turner, relative, family friend or attorney aware of the
list. It is surprising how much our tools are worth. Certainly enough to
consider adding them to a revocable trust or will or designated  as
gifts. While waiting to turn our final finial, the listed inventory
could be important in insurance loss situations. Of course, we all know
this, so why waste the bandwidth. Why indeed!

What have those of you who have at least done _something about the other
half of
that "death and taxes" inevitability thing arranged for?  I'm 86 and
still paying taxes, but as to what will happen to my lifetime
accumulation of tools, unless I 'do' instead of 'say', probably an
unethical fellow turner or a junk man will decide for me. I mean to do
something about that tomorrow, but for now, think I'll go out in my shop
and enjoy turning some wood. Sad, but true for me and just maybe for
some of you.  knowatimsayn?

Turn to Safety,  Arch                        
                                                  Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by Boru » Sun, 18 Nov 2007 07:55:23


Quote:

> Sometime ago a fellow woodturner, well off and ostensibly a fine
> gentleman related a disturbing gloat. At least it disturbed me and I
> believe it would be disturbing to most of you here. He had offered the
> widow of a recently deceased  woodturner $8.00 for his Glaser and Sorby
> bowl gouges and she accepted. She is not too well off, but he saw
> nothing wrong. He was smug and even laughed during his gloat. True, he
> didn't know the deceased, but should that matter?

> I reckon ethics are in the conscience of the buyer, so I will skip that.
> However I wonder if your widowed spouse wouldn't assume that your $50
> boxed set of Harbor Freights would be worth much more than your grimy
> old Glaser, and as for that worthless thingamajig full of dirty water
> (Tormek) she would likely say "take it if you want it". Then there's the
> bereaved spouse who way overvalues 'old Joe's' tools because he loved
> them so.

> I haven't and probably most of you haven't either, but we should make
> our spouse or somebody knowledgeable about the value of our tools.
> Better would be to inventory and price out our tools conservatively and
> make a fellow turner, relative, family friend or attorney aware of the
> list. It is surprising how much our tools are worth. Certainly enough to
> consider adding them to a revocable trust or will or designated  as
> gifts. While waiting to turn our final finial, the listed inventory
> could be important in insurance loss situations. Of course, we all know
> this, so why waste the bandwidth. Why indeed!

> What have those of you who have at least done _something about the other
> half of
> that "death and taxes" inevitability thing arranged for?  I'm 86 and
> still paying taxes, but as to what will happen to my lifetime
> accumulation of tools, unless I 'do' instead of 'say', probably an
> unethical fellow turner or a junk man will decide for me. I mean to do
> something about that tomorrow, but for now, think I'll go out in my shop
> and enjoy turning some wood. Sad, but true for me and just maybe for
> some of you.  knowatimsayn?

> Turn to Safety,  Arch
>                                                   Fortiter

> http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I believe in a "fair crack of the whip", if the tool is worth x he should
have paid x but that`s me.

I discussed this with my wife a while ago who said she would leave the
workshop as a shrine :), seriously though, the receipts are all in a file,
between herself and a friend the tools would be sold for what they are
worth.

--
Boru

Slack Linux #328989
http://counter.li.org

 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by Leo Lichtma » Sun, 18 Nov 2007 11:35:42


woodturner $8.00 for his Glaser and Sorby bowl gouges and she accepted. She
is not too well off, but he saw nothing wrong. He was smug and even laughed
during his gloat. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think that's disgusting.  Maybe some of the people who witnessed the
gloat, or otherwise know what a S*** he is will have a chance to get back at
him.  One thing not to do--when he dies, don't punish the widow.  She's been
punished enough.  (And I haven't even met the guy.)

 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by Jerry - OH » Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:59:26


On the wall of my shop is a sign Grandson 1 gets auto tools
Grandson 2 gets woodworking tools
The 3rd  borrows what he needs
I just hope my kid  stops having babys......

Jr

 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by Canchipp » Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:30:53



Quote:
> Sometime ago a fellow woodturner, well off and ostensibly a fine
> gentleman related a disturbing gloat. At least it disturbed me and I
> believe it would be disturbing to most of you here. He had offered the
> widow of a recently deceased  woodturner $8.00 for his Glaser and Sorby
> bowl gouges and she accepted. She is not too well off, but he saw
> nothing wrong. He was smug and even laughed during his gloat. True, he
> didn't know the deceased, but should that matter?

> I reckon ethics are in the conscience of the buyer, so I will skip that.
> However I wonder if your widowed spouse wouldn't assume that your $50
> boxed set of Harbor Freights would be worth much more than your grimy
> old Glaser, and as for that worthless thingamajig full of dirty water
> (Tormek) she would likely say "take it if you want it". Then there's the
> bereaved spouse who way overvalues 'old Joe's' tools because he loved
> them so.

> I haven't and probably most of you haven't either, but we should make
> our spouse or somebody knowledgeable about the value of our tools.
> Better would be to inventory and price out our tools conservatively and
> make a fellow turner, relative, family friend or attorney aware of the
> list. It is surprising how much our tools are worth. Certainly enough to
> consider adding them to a revocable trust or will or designated  as
> gifts. While waiting to turn our final finial, the listed inventory
> could be important in insurance loss situations. Of course, we all know
> this, so why waste the bandwidth. Why indeed!

> What have those of you who have at least done _something about the other
> half of
> that "death and taxes" inevitability thing arranged for?  I'm 86 and
> still paying taxes, but as to what will happen to my lifetime
> accumulation of tools, unless I 'do' instead of 'say', probably an
> unethical fellow turner or a junk man will decide for me. I mean to do
> something about that tomorrow, but for now, think I'll go out in my shop
> and enjoy turning some wood. Sad, but true for me and just maybe for
> some of you.  knowatimsayn?

> Turn to Safety,  Arch
>                                                   Fortiter

> http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Arch our Guild just went through the process of sorting and cleaning
out a deceased member's workshop at the request of his widow. All the
major stuff was valued at market value and sold. The club was
compensated by receiving all the little things such as magazines and
wood as well as a few tools that didn't sell, as a donation. We had a
silent auction and raised money for the club funds at the widow's
request. This seems a fair way to handle the inevitable with little
distress to the surviving family members.
 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by mac davi » Mon, 19 Nov 2007 00:28:07


Tough question, about did he rip off the widow.. Seems that a lot of folks that
have money got it by being cheap and wheeling and dealing, but there's a place
for that..
IMHO, if the tools were marked that cheap, I'd sort of ask the lady if she was
SURE... It sounds like she had no idea what she was selling..
OTOH, maybe she didn't care and just wanted them out of sight and mind..

My will says that my wife gets everything and if she wants to share the tools
with our kids, that's up to her.. She probably knows the value better than I do,
I buy the low or mid range stuff and she buys the more expensive stuff for
me..lol

Quote:

>Sometime ago a fellow woodturner, well off and ostensibly a fine
>gentleman related a disturbing gloat. At least it disturbed me and I
>believe it would be disturbing to most of you here. He had offered the
>widow of a recently deceased  woodturner $8.00 for his Glaser and Sorby
>bowl gouges and she accepted. She is not too well off, but he saw
>nothing wrong. He was smug and even laughed during his gloat. True, he
>didn't know the deceased, but should that matter?

>I reckon ethics are in the conscience of the buyer, so I will skip that.
>However I wonder if your widowed spouse wouldn't assume that your $50
>boxed set of Harbor Freights would be worth much more than your grimy
>old Glaser, and as for that worthless thingamajig full of dirty water
>(Tormek) she would likely say "take it if you want it". Then there's the
>bereaved spouse who way overvalues 'old Joe's' tools because he loved
>them so.

>I haven't and probably most of you haven't either, but we should make
>our spouse or somebody knowledgeable about the value of our tools.
>Better would be to inventory and price out our tools conservatively and
>make a fellow turner, relative, family friend or attorney aware of the
>list. It is surprising how much our tools are worth. Certainly enough to
>consider adding them to a revocable trust or will or designated  as
>gifts. While waiting to turn our final finial, the listed inventory
>could be important in insurance loss situations. Of course, we all know
>this, so why waste the bandwidth. Why indeed!

>What have those of you who have at least done _something about the other
>half of
>that "death and taxes" inevitability thing arranged for?  I'm 86 and
>still paying taxes, but as to what will happen to my lifetime
>accumulation of tools, unless I 'do' instead of 'say', probably an
>unethical fellow turner or a junk man will decide for me. I mean to do
>something about that tomorrow, but for now, think I'll go out in my shop
>and enjoy turning some wood. Sad, but true for me and just maybe for
>some of you.  knowatimsayn?

>Turn to Safety,  Arch                        
>                                                  Fortiter

>http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by mac davi » Mon, 19 Nov 2007 00:29:29



Quote:
>On the wall of my shop is a sign Grandson 1 gets auto tools
>Grandson 2 gets woodworking tools
>The 3rd  borrows what he needs
>I just hope my kid  stops having babys......

>Jr

Watch your back..lol
I figure that between life insurance and tools, I'm worth a hell of a lot more
dead than alive..

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by Leo Lichtma » Mon, 19 Nov 2007 01:50:30


cheap, (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mac, did you miss this line in the original post:  " He had offered the
widow of a recently deceased  woodturner $8.00 for his Glaser and Sorby
bowl gouges and she accepted."  Not a touch call at all--the guy is a cheap,
dirty bastard.

 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by charlie » Mon, 19 Nov 2007 03:47:15


Re: taking advantage of widows

I'm at the other end of the spectrum.  

I saw an ad in the paper - "selling deceased husband's tools".
Called, made an appointment and went to check it out.

Sat with the widow and listened to stories about her now
deceased husband and his hobbies - one being woodworking.
After a while, she took me out to his "shop" - a small add
on to the garage.  We had to clear some spider webs as
we entered - the space obviously undisturbed since the
deceased last left it.

Took a while to figure out how to turn "the lights on"
- an overhead bulb - unplugged from a wall socket.

The Dearly Departed must've been a jack of all trades
for there were all manner of tools - most from Sears.
We talked about the various unfinished projects left
on benches or sitting on a tool chest and I got a feel
for this guy - and how his wife loved him - and missed
him.  I wish I'd had the chance to meet him - he sounded
like an interesting fellow.

Eventually I asked if I could poke around and explore
a bit and the widow said "Sure.".

Most of the stuff was "tradesman" tools that Sears
probably sold in the late 40s or realy 50s but there were
some gems in the mix
- a 1" Stanley Everlast socket chisel, clearly used, and
  at least once - abused - some nice nicks in the edge
  the top of the handle clearly hit more than once with
  a metal hammer
- a Miller Falls Co., Miller Falls Tools, Founded in 1868
   Greenfield Mass.  Made in the USA No. 5A hand drill,
   the knobs and handle in actual rosewood - a compete
   set of the original drill bits inside the threaded wood
   twist on and off top of the handle.

I asked the price of the chisel and hand drill.

"Oh a buck for the chisel - and two fifty for the drill."

We took the two tools outside and we sat in the lawn
chairs in the driveway.  

"Mam, this chisel, in this condition, goes for anywhere
from $15 to $30.  And this hand drill is probably in
the $30 to $50 dollar range, given that it still has a
complete set of drill bits in the handle - see.  So let's
split the difference - call it $23 for the chisel and $40
for the hand drill and I'll round it off to $65 - for Sales
Tax."

The lady's expression went from shock and surprise
to a fond smile as she no doubt cursed and blessed her
dead husband.

"DONE!" she said.  "And let's make it a nice round $60,
since you're such a nice young man."  (I was in my mid
fifties at the time so you get an idea of the lady's age).

We spent the next several hours putting stick on
price tags on the rest of the stuff that I had some
idea of how much they were worth.  And during that
time she told me about her husband - and their life
together.  They must've been one hell of a couple.

When I was about to leave she handed me back the
$60.  I protested.  She was incistent - "You've been
a big help and I want you to have those two tools.".

We finally settle on $30 - and the stories were worth
at least that - so the tools were free.  Oh - and a glass
of cold home made lemonade was thrown in as well!

A Win-Win situation.

There are far more angels in this world than ***s
- not that I consider myself an angel by any means
- but I do try to not be an ***.

Re: What Happens To My Tools - and machines and tooling

I've got a drawer in my shop full of receipts.  Figure
my boys should know where their inheritence went
- if they want to total things up.  Will also give them
a starting point when pricing the stuff they don't
want to keep.  I suspect the hand tools and cordless
stuff will go to my contractor son and the bigger
power tools - and WOOD! will be used by the one who
chose college and got a degree in international business.
He's the woodworker of the two.

BTW - if you put The Manuals AND the receipt in a
ZipLok bad and tape to the stationary tools it'll
make it a lot easier on your "heirs" - and can kick
up the price a bit when negotiating their sale.

Since You Can't Take It With You - at least make
an effort to ease the work on those Left Behind
(or Below - if you've done it right).

Good thread Arch - as usual.

charile b

 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by l.vander.. » Mon, 19 Nov 2007 06:09:20


Hi other Leo
I read that part Leo, and that's where the real difference comes in,
to go in and rip off someone vulnerable, and than have the guts to
gloat about it.
A dirty bastard, yes a real low life, scum I'd call one like that,
equal to someone that comes in and steals your stuff.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo



Quote:

> cheap, (clip)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Mac, did you miss this line in the original post:  " He had offered the
> widow of a recently deceased  woodturner $8.00 for his Glaser and Sorby
> bowl gouges and she accepted."  Not a touch call at all--the guy is a cheap,
> dirty bastard.

 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by mac davi » Tue, 20 Nov 2007 02:25:37




Quote:


>cheap, (clip)
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Mac, did you miss this line in the original post:  " He had offered the
>widow of a recently deceased  woodturner $8.00 for his Glaser and Sorby
>bowl gouges and she accepted."  Not a touch call at all--the guy is a cheap,
>dirty bastard.

I have no doubt that you're right about the guys character, Leo..
I'm just saying that IF the tools were marked/offered for too low a price, I'd
ask if they were sure, but a lot of folks would just figure that it's a good
deal and gloat..
I've been called an idiot before for asking folks if they were really sure on
pricing something if it seemed too low.... Guess it's all those years selling
real estate..

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by mac davi » Tue, 20 Nov 2007 02:29:48


A good story, Charlie, and an excellent character reference..
It's nice to hear about folks "doing the right thing" and you did just that,
IMHO...\You also touched someone and got touched back.. good karma all around..
Good on ya, Charlie, you did a GOOD thing..

Quote:
>Re: taking advantage of widows

>I'm at the other end of the spectrum.  

>I saw an ad in the paper - "selling deceased husband's tools".
>Called, made an appointment and went to check it out.

>Sat with the widow and listened to stories about her now
>deceased husband and his hobbies - one being woodworking.
>After a while, she took me out to his "shop" - a small add
>on to the garage.  We had to clear some spider webs as
>we entered - the space obviously undisturbed since the
>deceased last left it.

>Took a while to figure out how to turn "the lights on"
>- an overhead bulb - unplugged from a wall socket.

>The Dearly Departed must've been a jack of all trades
>for there were all manner of tools - most from Sears.
>We talked about the various unfinished projects left
>on benches or sitting on a tool chest and I got a feel
>for this guy - and how his wife loved him - and missed
>him.  I wish I'd had the chance to meet him - he sounded
>like an interesting fellow.

>Eventually I asked if I could poke around and explore
>a bit and the widow said "Sure.".

>Most of the stuff was "tradesman" tools that Sears
>probably sold in the late 40s or realy 50s but there were
>some gems in the mix
>- a 1" Stanley Everlast socket chisel, clearly used, and
>  at least once - abused - some nice nicks in the edge
>  the top of the handle clearly hit more than once with
>  a metal hammer
>- a Miller Falls Co., Miller Falls Tools, Founded in 1868
>   Greenfield Mass.  Made in the USA No. 5A hand drill,
>   the knobs and handle in actual rosewood - a compete
>   set of the original drill bits inside the threaded wood
>   twist on and off top of the handle.

>I asked the price of the chisel and hand drill.

>"Oh a buck for the chisel - and two fifty for the drill."

>We took the two tools outside and we sat in the lawn
>chairs in the driveway.  

>"Mam, this chisel, in this condition, goes for anywhere
>from $15 to $30.  And this hand drill is probably in
>the $30 to $50 dollar range, given that it still has a
>complete set of drill bits in the handle - see.  So let's
>split the difference - call it $23 for the chisel and $40
>for the hand drill and I'll round it off to $65 - for Sales
>Tax."

>The lady's expression went from shock and surprise
>to a fond smile as she no doubt cursed and blessed her
>dead husband.

>"DONE!" she said.  "And let's make it a nice round $60,
>since you're such a nice young man."  (I was in my mid
>fifties at the time so you get an idea of the lady's age).

>We spent the next several hours putting stick on
>price tags on the rest of the stuff that I had some
>idea of how much they were worth.  And during that
>time she told me about her husband - and their life
>together.  They must've been one hell of a couple.

>When I was about to leave she handed me back the
>$60.  I protested.  She was incistent - "You've been
>a big help and I want you to have those two tools.".

>We finally settle on $30 - and the stories were worth
>at least that - so the tools were free.  Oh - and a glass
>of cold home made lemonade was thrown in as well!

>A Win-Win situation.

>There are far more angels in this world than ***s
>- not that I consider myself an angel by any means
>- but I do try to not be an ***.

>Re: What Happens To My Tools - and machines and tooling

>I've got a drawer in my shop full of receipts.  Figure
>my boys should know where their inheritence went
>- if they want to total things up.  Will also give them
>a starting point when pricing the stuff they don't
>want to keep.  I suspect the hand tools and cordless
>stuff will go to my contractor son and the bigger
>power tools - and WOOD! will be used by the one who
>chose college and got a degree in international business.
>He's the woodworker of the two.

>BTW - if you put The Manuals AND the receipt in a
>ZipLok bad and tape to the stationary tools it'll
>make it a lot easier on your "heirs" - and can kick
>up the price a bit when negotiating their sale.

>Since You Can't Take It With You - at least make
>an effort to ease the work on those Left Behind
>(or Below - if you've done it right).

>Good thread Arch - as usual.

>charile b

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by Leo Lichtma » Tue, 20 Nov 2007 04:10:59



Quote:
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:50:30 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"



>>marked/offered for too low a price, I'd
> ask if they were sure, (clip)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mac, I understand now.  Let's jump from woodturning and ethics to what may
seem like a trivial grammatical point.
If you had said, "If the tools *had been* marked/offered at too low a
price," I would have had no quarrel at all with your response.  I agree with
that version exactly.  By the wording you used, I got the implication that
the tools might have been MARKED at those low prices.

I am a curmudgeon, who hates to see the subjunctive mood fading from the
language, and this is a case where it did make a difference.  Usually, I
admit, it DON'T.

I shop at flea markets regularly, and I have sometimes offered more than the
asking price for things, when they were REALLY worth it.  The result is
that, over time, these vendors have come to know me, and I get bargains.

IOW, ethical practice is a good gimick <G>.

 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by Prometheu » Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:56:50


Quote:

>What have those of you who have at least done _something about the other
>half of
>that "death and taxes" inevitability thing arranged for?  I'm 86 and
>still paying taxes, but as to what will happen to my lifetime
>accumulation of tools, unless I 'do' instead of 'say', probably an
>unethical fellow turner or a junk man will decide for me. I mean to do
>something about that tomorrow, but for now, think I'll go out in my shop
>and enjoy turning some wood. Sad, but true for me and just maybe for
>some of you.  knowatimsayn?

Well, that's probably still a long way off for me, so my solution is
to have put a large enough insurance policy on myself so that if
something untimely were to happen to me, my wife would not have to
worry about money from my tools or any other source for quite some
time.  The life insurance in question might be overkill, but I figure
that if I should happen to die young, there's no reason not to leave
an independantly wealthy widow.

In a longer term, I try to find good homes for any tool I've replaced,
going more for getting them into the hands of someone that will use
and appreciate them more than by figuring out thier actual value.  I
figure I've already got my money's worth out of most of the tools I
own, and can afford to let them go cheap, provided I already have the
replacement.  Once I get too old to enjoy using them, I intend to find
a young woodworker and/or machinist to pass them along to before I go-
and if I can't bear to part with them for old times' sake, I'll draw
up a will to that effect.

The last thing I want to think about is a lifetime's worth of
accumlated tools being divided up and auctioned or sold at a garage
sale to become somebody's gloat- I'd much rather let them all go
together for nothing, and know that they're entering the care of
someone who needs them and will use them.

 
 
 

Musing about doing as I'm saying, not as I'm doing.

Post by William Nobl » Sun, 25 Nov 2007 02:40:36


this is timely - I've been building up my metal working tool kit, and I see
a lotof auctions on ebay that say "my father was a machinist, don't know
what these are" - so, here are some things you can do

1. make sure someone in your circle of friends/family actually knows what
hte stuff is, and what is very expensive and what is not - in this case I
have one very technically minded daughter, but it could be anyone

2. make some written arrangements

3. if you are infirm it's best to dispose of while you are still in
control - though that is a distressing thought


Quote:

>>What have those of you who have at least done _something about the other
>>half of
>>that "death and taxes" inevitability thing arranged for?  I'm 86 and
>>still paying taxes, but as to what will happen to my lifetime
>>accumulation of tools, unless I 'do' instead of 'say', probably an
>>unethical fellow turner or a junk man will decide for me. I mean to do
>>something about that tomorrow, but for now, think I'll go out in my shop
>>and enjoy turning some wood. Sad, but true for me and just maybe for
>>some of you.  knowatimsayn?

--
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