even more questions about fruit wines

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by Dewey & Lucy Thompso » Sun, 31 Mar 2002 01:33:10



Quote:
> so, does that mean that you just use 100% fruit, and the liquid alone that
> comes from the fruit serves as your must.....?
> you add NO Water?
> that's a TON of fruit for a 3, 5, or 6 gallon batch!!!!!!

Depends upon the fruit.  Elderberries can be used at about 9-10 pounds per
gallon.  Blackberries come in at about 8-9 pounds per gallon. The difficulty
is whether it is really worth it.  9 pounds of blackberries will make 2
gallons of "good" wine, and 1-1/2 gallons of "great" wine.  If you make only
one gallon, is the quality improved proportionally?  Generally not methinks.

Quote:
> I still have elderberries in my freezer from last season, haven't known
yet
> what to do with them because of the elderberry goo problem that I fear
that
> will happen.  I'd like to get a foodprocesser/juice extractor, take the
> juice, boil it to break down the acid, and then use that blended with the
> blackberries to try a wine...

I don't bother boiling elderberry juice.  I do freeze the berries, then thaw
them out and run them through a juicer to extract the juice from the pulp
and seeds.

I don't have nearly as much of a "goo" problem as some others report.  There
is a bit of a scum on the primary fermenter, but a soapy steel wool (SOS)
pad takes it out nicely.  The secondary might have a slight sheen of greeish
tinge, this comes out nicely with a carboy brush.

Get off your duff and make some elderberry wine.
:o)

  It's worth it.
Dewey

 
 
 

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by Greg Coo » Sun, 31 Mar 2002 02:09:00


On 3/28/02 7:56 PM, in article

Quote:

> Lib,

>> This is not a highly acidic fruit.  The wine does have bitter or tart
>> characterictics but a residual sugar of 5-7% balances this out nicely.
>> Once again, I cant see a reason to add water to a raspberry wine
>> recipe unless you are trying to save money.  Any water added to my
>> 100% raspberry wine would only take away from the big, in your face,
>> raspberry aroma that hits you when you stick your nose in the glass.

> I can't agree more!! I have a similar well balanced raspberry that's
> just finished fermenting. Thanks for posting this, it's nice to know
> there are other people out there doing the same thing and feeling the
> same way about it

> Ben

I had a chokecherry wine made by a friend of mine that was 100% fruit. It
was a little sweet to balance the fruit and was absolutely the best
chokecherry wine I have ever had. It turned out very much like a port in
body and flavor.

----Greg

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/grcook/wine/

 
 
 

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by Li » Sun, 31 Mar 2002 08:55:37


Quote:
> The reason that I would never make wine from 100% raspberry juice is the
> overpowering taste.   I have made raspberry wine from 3, 4, and 5 pounds per
> gallon, 5 pounds per gallon is overwhelming.  Using 8-9 pounds to get all
> juice would be indescribable (and not in a good way).

> Dewey

Riveside International wine competition issued a gold medal to a
Raspberry wine made from 100% Red Raspberries.  Some wine judges would
disagree with you.
Lib
 
 
 

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by Li » Sun, 31 Mar 2002 08:55:36


Quote:
> The reason that I would never make wine from 100% raspberry juice is the
> overpowering taste.   I have made raspberry wine from 3, 4, and 5 pounds per
> gallon, 5 pounds per gallon is overwhelming.  Using 8-9 pounds to get all
> juice would be indescribable (and not in a good way).

> Dewey

Riveside International wine competition issued a gold medal to a
Raspberry wine made from 100% Red Raspberries.  Some wine judges would
disagree with you.
Lib
 
 
 

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by Jonathan Sach » Sun, 31 Mar 2002 14:06:47


Quote:

>high acidity is the pre*** problem... Solutions...
>chemical deacification...

I'm trying to learn how to make a good wine from the wild plums that
grow in my yard. High acidity seems to be my most serious problem. I
wonder whether you know any good chemical techniques for lowering
acidity apart from adding calcium carbonate, which I have found
helpful but insufficient. (I'm going to try malolactic fermentation
too, but I like to pursue multiple strategies in parallel wherever
possible.)

I also took the repeated empahsis on fruit quality to heart, and I'm
starting to think that if I'm serious about this (that is, if I want
to spend any time and money on it at all), I might best chop down the
wild trees and plant domestic varieties that will give me better
material to work with. I'd like to ask what others' experience has
been with different varieties of plums. Should I simply choose the
one with the least-acid fruit? Or, should I assume that any domestic
variety will have a manageable acid level and look for the fruit that
tastes best to me? Or, should I restrict my choices to one or more
particular varieties which have been found to produce good results?

Send email to jsachs177 at earthlink dot net.

 
 
 

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by Greg Coo » Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:20:13



Quote:


>> high acidity is the pre*** problem... Solutions...
>> chemical deacification...

> I'm trying to learn how to make a good wine from the wild plums that
> grow in my yard. High acidity seems to be my most serious problem. I
> wonder whether you know any good chemical techniques for lowering
> acidity apart from adding calcium carbonate, which I have found
> helpful but insufficient. (I'm going to try malolactic fermentation
> too, but I like to pursue multiple strategies in parallel wherever
> possible.)

Have you thought about blending your plums with some other low acid fruit?

----Greg

http://www.FoundCollection.com/

 
 
 

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by frederick ploegma » Mon, 01 Apr 2002 00:57:02


You can use Potassium Carbonate in place of the Calcium Carbonate,
and try using Lalvin 71B-1122 yeast which will consume some of the
Malic acid during ferment.  Hope this helps.


Quote:
> On 3/29/02 11:06 PM, in article


Quote:


> >> high acidity is the pre*** problem... Solutions...
> >> chemical deacification...

> > I'm trying to learn how to make a good wine from the wild plums that
> > grow in my yard. High acidity seems to be my most serious problem. I
> > wonder whether you know any good chemical techniques for lowering
> > acidity apart from adding calcium carbonate, which I have found
> > helpful but insufficient. (I'm going to try malolactic fermentation
> > too, but I like to pursue multiple strategies in parallel wherever
> > possible.)

> Have you thought about blending your plums with some other low acid fruit?

> ----Greg

> http://www.FoundCollection.com/

 
 
 

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by Ben Rott » Mon, 01 Apr 2002 05:58:59


Quote:
> grow in my yard. High acidity seems to be my most serious problem. I
> wonder whether you know any good chemical techniques for lowering
> acidity apart from adding calcium carbonate, which I have found
> helpful but insufficient. (I'm going to try malolactic fermentation
> too, but I like to pursue multiple strategies in parallel wherever
> possible.)

Multiple strategies might include: chemical deacidification, acid
metabolisation by a yeast (eg use Lalvin's 71B-1122 which can
metabolise 20-40% of the malic acid in the must during fermentation)
or acid metabolisation by Lactobacillus plantarum (a pre-fermentation
biological deacidification of malic acid which can reduce malic acid
by 40-60% (available from CHR Hansen)), malolactic fermentation, a
residual sweetness balancing, or post fermentation wine blending.

I remember the "high acid fruit must; pulp; sugar; some questions"
covered this issue.

From that thread, an example of a multiple deacidification strategy
might go:
19 ppt (as sulph. = 29 ppt as tartaric). Use about 9 g/l K2CO3
(potassium bicarbonate - this avoids the chalkiness of calcium,
deacidifies to a greater extent for the same mass of powder, and the
potassium can be precipitated out when cold stabilising) to reduce
acid to 10 g/l sulph. (15.4 g/l as tartaric), then ferment with
Lalvin's 71B-1122 yeast reducing acidity by 40% to 6 (9.2 tart.), then
conduct a malolactic fermentation finally reducing acidity to 4 g/l
(6.1 as tart.).

Quote:
> I also took the repeated empahsis on fruit quality to heart, and I'm
> starting to think that if I'm serious about this (that is, if I want
> to spend any time and money on it at all), I might best chop down the
> wild trees and plant domestic varieties that will give me better
> material to work with. I'd like to ask what others' experience has

I'd definitely go with that. Cultivated fruit is almost always
superior.

Quote:
> been with different varieties of plums. Should I simply choose the
> one with the least-acid fruit? Or, should I assume that any domestic

I'd say you should consider the other elements too such as sugar
concentration, tannin content, and flavour development etc.

Quote:
> variety will have a manageable acid level and look for the fruit that
> tastes best to me? Or, should I restrict my choices to one or more

I'd go for manageable acid levels, but not at the expense of the
aformentioned attributes.

Quote:
> particular varieties which have been found to produce good results?

Try a whole range of choices if possible. I haven't experimented with
enough varieties at all but I have found Spanish Friar plums pretty
good and Victoria plums are nutorious for making good plum wine
(though I can't speak from personal experience on the latter). I'd
actually encourage using a blend of different varieties of plums -
this results in increased complexity, and even a certain degree of
balancing of the resulting juice.

Hope that helps - let me know if there's anything else I can add.

Ben
Improved Winemaking
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/

 
 
 

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by Jeff Cu » Mon, 01 Apr 2002 06:39:59


In another post I've described my thawing peaches. If pressed prior to
fermentation, approximately how much juice could I expect to get from 35
pounds of sliced frozen peaches. Would around 2.5 gallons be about
right? Right now I only have one 5gal carboy empty, so I need to make
enough to fill it & hopefully have around 3 more liters to save for
topping.
Also at what temp would adding pectic enzyme be best? They have come up
to 33 degrees in the past 24 hours.
Jeff
 
 
 

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by Ben Rott » Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:16:16


Jeff,

Quote:
> In another post I've described my thawing peaches. If pressed prior to
> fermentation, approximately how much juice could I expect to get from 35
> pounds of sliced frozen peaches. Would around 2.5 gallons be about
> right? Right now I only have one 5gal carboy empty, so I need to make
> enough to fill it & hopefully have around 3 more liters to save for
> topping.

Of course it depends on your extraction method and the peaches
themselves but I usually get 500 ml juice per kg of fruit. That would
give 2.1 US gallons given 35 pounds of fruit. Given the 500 ml/kg
figure, you'd need 44 kg of fruit for the 5 US gallon carboy plus 3
litres for topping. But your peaches may well be juicier than mine :)

Quote:
> Also at what temp would adding pectic enzyme be best? They have come up
> to 33 degrees in the past 24 hours.

Their effectiveness increases with an increase in temperature. They
generally work over a temperature range of -5 to 60 C (25 to 140 F).
The effect roughly doubles with each (approx.) 5 C (10 F) temperature
increase.
BTW, 33 C is quite hot - many yeast die around 35 C or so. I'd
encourage you to try and cool it down if you can at all, but perhaps
you know this already and it is difficult for you.

Hope that helps,
Ben

 
 
 

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by Jeff Cu » Tue, 02 Apr 2002 07:05:30


Sorry Ben, didn't mention that's not Celsius, after slightly over 48
hours the peaches are up to 62 F.
 I thank you and everyone else for your suggestions based upon
experience & the time you took to address my questions.
 Since this is all the peaches I have & it would cost over $130US to do
44kg worth, I think I must crush the fruit & begin pulp fermentation
tomorrow with my 35 lbs for a 5 gallon batch.
 Hopefully later this year I can obtain very ripe locally grown peaches
at a low cost & use your methods. They sound great!

Thanks Alot!
Jeff

 
 
 

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by Jack Kell » Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:30:57


Jeff, for years I've made very good peach wine using 3-5 lbs of fruit
per gallon and it has always been good, except once when I suffered a
stuck fermentation early on, didn't catch it, and the must spoiled
(soured).  You are using 7 lbs per gallon.  I would not even think
twice about it -- just do it.  I would do as you are doing -- begin
pulp fermentation at once.  You will get far more of the natural peach
flavor, aroma and sugar than if you did a juice extraction up front
and fermented that.

Having frozen and thawed you peaches, expect to get a lot of gross
pulp lees.  You can control this somewhat by putting your pulp in
nylon straining bags and tying them off.  Two bags ought to do it.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

 
 
 

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by Jonathan Sach » Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:44:31


Quote:

>Multiple strategies might include... Lalvin's 71B-1122

I'm using that. Too soon to tell whether it's going to help.

Quote:
>acid metabolisation by Lactobacillus plantarum

That's interesting possibility that I haven't heard of before. I
checked Hanson's web site, and found that they sell it in a politician
intended to treat 660 gallons. Since I'm currently experimenting with
one gallon at a time, that would be difficult to use -- and probably
expensive! Still, it will be something to keep in mind.

I also hadn't heard of using potassium bicarbonate before, and that
sounds woth a try.

I've been using multiple strategies, as you suggested, experimenting
with different combinations of things. Here's one which produced one
of my two best results so far (out of nine batches):

   Freeze plums, then thaw completely and press. (They were
   frozen summer. This year I hope to process them more promptly!)

   Simmer one pound of bananas in enough water to cover
   until soft.

   56 oz juice from pressed plums
   6 oz pulp from pressed plums
   84 oz water, including banana water
   0.4 oz calcium carbonate
   12 oz sugar
   11 ml 10% sulphite solution

Those are just one-off numbers; I devised the actual recipe in terms
of acid control. Working backward from a post-fermentation target of
4.3 ppt acid, I wanted the must at 6.0 ppt. The calcium carbonate
would lower it 3 ppt, so I diluted the juice with enough water to
lower the acid level from the original 19 ppt to 9 ppt. Then I added
the bananas for body. The amount sugar was chosen to raise the initial
brix to 18 (from 11).

One day later:

        3/4 tsp pectic enzyme (stirred in)
        1.25 g Lalvin 71B-1122 (floating on top)

Quote:
>I'd definitely go with that. Cultivated fruit is almost always
>superior....

From your further comments, it appears that I will have to get several
varieties of fruit and try them. I certainly don't want to plant a
tree, wait several years while it grows enough to produce fruit, and
then decide that I don't like it!

The plums available in stores are the common commercial varieties. I
haven't checked my local produce market, but I would expect the
dealers to have the same selection, since they must be supplying many
of the stores. Does anyone have suggestions on how to find specific
varieties in reasonable quantities and in top condition? (By the way,
I live near San Francisco.)

Send email to jsachs177 at earthlink dot net.

 
 
 

even more questions about fruit wines

Post by Jonathan Sach » Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:53:53


(Please ignore the previous copy of this message, if my cancel did not
reach your server. After I sent it I found that I had not proofread
the whole thing, and my speech recognition software inserted several
hilarious bloopers. Normally I typed, but I'm recovering from carpal
tunnel surgery, and cannot type much right now.)

Quote:

>Multiple strategies might include... Lalvin's 71B-1122

I'm using that. Too soon to tell whether it's going to help.

Quote:
>acid metabolisation by Lactobacillus plantarum

That's an interesting possibility that I haven't heard of before. I
checked Hansen's web site, and found that they sell it in a pouch
intended to treat 660 gallons. Since I'm currently experimenting on
one gallon at a time, that would be difficult to use -- and probably
expensive! Still, it will be something to keep in mind.

I also hadn't heard of using potassium bicarbonate before, and that
sounds worth a try.

I've been using multiple strategies, as you suggested, trying
different combinations of things. Here's a recipe which produced one
of my two best results so far (out of nine batches):

   Freeze plums, then thaw completely and press. (They were
   frozen last summer. This year I hope to process them more
   promptly!)

   Simmer one pound of bananas in enough water to cover
   until soft.

   56 oz juice from pressed plums
   6 oz pulp from pressed plums
   84 oz water, including banana water
   0.4 oz calcium carbonate
   12 oz sugar
   11 ml 10% sulphite solution

Those are just one-off numbers; I devised the actual recipe in terms
of acid control. Working backward from a post-fermentation target of
4.3 ppt acid, I wanted the must to start at 6.0 ppt. The calcium
carbonate would lower it 3 ppt, so I diluted the juice with enough
water to lower the acid level from the original 19 ppt to 9 ppt. Then
I added the bananas for body. The sugar was measured to raise the
initial brix to 18 (from 11).

One day later:

        3/4 tsp pectic enzyme (stirred in)
        1.25 g Lalvin 71B-1122 (floating on top)

Quote:
>I'd definitely go with that. Cultivated fruit is almost always
>superior....

From your further comments, it appears that I will have to get several
varieties of fruit and try them. I certainly don't want to plant a
tree, wait several years while it grows enough to produce fruit, and
then decide that I don't like it!

The plums I can buy in stores are the common commercial varieties. I
haven't checked my local produce market, but I would expect the
dealers to have the same selection, since they must be supplying many
of the stores. Does anyone have suggestions on how to find specific
varieties in reasonable quantities and in top condition? (By the way,
I live near San Francisco.)

Send email to jsachs177 at earthlink dot net.