Making 10 % wine

Making 10 % wine

Post by Richard Krus » Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:38:55



Does anyone in this group follow the finding of the late Robert Kime I
found in my archives:

Robert Kime, food science pilot plant manager at Cornell's New York State
Agricultural Experiment Station, believes he has found the ***-content
threshold that separates fine fruit wine from cheap, inferior wine -- what
the British call "plonk."
"It's a fine line," says Kime, explaining that when winemakers, commercial
and domestic, allow the fruit-fermentation process to exceed an ***
content of 10.5 percent, the wine's flavor can be ruined. Kime, who has
worked with a number of wineries in the New York Finger Lakes region, notes
that winemakers invariably sacrifice flavor by making fruit wine with the
same *** content as wine made from grapes.
Grape wine can have an *** content as high as 11 or 12 percent and still
be excellent. However, Kime says, *** is a solvent that can react with
and dissolve flavor compounds in other fruits and vegetables when it reaches
levels of 11 percent or higher.
"Higher *** content vaporizes the flavors, and they escape through the
bubbler overnight," he says.
To prevent fruit wine from becoming tasteless or cloying, Kime suggests
stopping the fermentation cold. When the fermenting fruit or vegetables
reach about 10.5 percent ***, he halts fermentation by refrigeration at
28 degrees Fahrenheit.

Dick Kruse

 
 
 

Making 10 % wine

Post by Joe Sallusti » Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:32:36


I wouldn't argue the point given where he is from.  I have not made
more than 10 or 15 fruit wines though.  I would agree with him that
most fruit wines seems better at lower ***s.  My strawberry and
cherry were well liked at 11 to 12 % but keep in mind he could really
measure his *** levels, I was using a vinometer.  Mine could have
been lower than that.

I once made a horrible hard cider with raisins and a lot of sugar, it
was closer to rocket fuel than wine.  Looked good, smelled good, tasted
awful.  It was higher *** and just not possible to balance.  It was
a long time ago, I wouldn't have done it the same way today.

Joe

Quote:

> Does anyone in this group follow the "finding" of the late Robert Kime I
> found in my archives:

> "Robert Kime, food science pilot plant manager at Cornell's New York State
> Agricultural Experiment Station, believes he has found the ***-content
> threshold that separates fine fruit wine from cheap, inferior wine -- what
> the British call "plonk."
> "It's a fine line," says Kime, explaining that when winemakers, commercial
> and domestic, allow the fruit-fermentation process to exceed an ***
> content of 10.5 percent, the wine's flavor can be ruined. Kime, who has
> worked with a number of wineries in the New York Finger Lakes region, notes
> that winemakers invariably sacrifice flavor by making fruit wine with the
> same *** content as wine made from grapes.
> Grape wine can have an *** content as high as 11 or 12 percent and still
> be excellent. However, Kime says, *** is a solvent that can react with
> and dissolve flavor compounds in other fruits and vegetables when it reaches
> levels of 11 percent or higher.
> "Higher *** content vaporizes the flavors, and they escape through the
> bubbler overnight," he says.
> To prevent fruit wine from becoming tasteless or cloying, Kime suggests
> stopping the fermentation cold. When the fermenting fruit or vegetables
> reach about 10.5 percent ***, he halts fermentation by refrigeration at
> 28 degrees Fahrenheit. "

>*** Kruse


 
 
 

Making 10 % wine

Post by pp » Wed, 25 Oct 2006 01:49:17



Quote:
> Grape wine can have an *** content as high as 11 or 12 percent and still
> be excellent. However, Kime says, *** is a solvent that can react with
> and dissolve flavor compounds in other fruits and vegetables when it reaches
> levels of 11 percent or higher.

The *** levels cited above for grape wines are too low, so I don't
see how that supports the main point. It's been a long time since I've
seen a grape wine, particularly red, with *** under 12% (expections
to the rule like German Rieslings notwithstanding). So the real
explanation that should be made is why the higher *** levels work
fine from grape wine as opposed to fruit wines, I don't see that
explained in the article.

Pp

 
 
 

Making 10 % wine

Post by Davi » Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:43:37


I think everything has less tendency to taste bad if it's watered down.

How this guy suggests making a 10% red wine with 24 Brix grapes (14%
avg. ***) is beyond me. What's the point, anyway? It's not just
about the fruitiness of the wine. It's about the complexity. There are
definitely qualities and flavors only released into the wine from
soaking a bit in the fermented skins while in the presence of ***.
Tannins, aromas,  unami (if you will). Add to that MLF qualities... and
oak... and then of course, ageing and flat-out TIME, and you end up
with a finished product far different than what you started with.

I'd say that, if you want a fruity grape beverage, stick with Welches.
If you want a polished, complex wine, go that route. But please, don't
try to blur the wines on the simple notion of *** content. Because
all you have to do is look at non-***ic "wines" to know just how
wrong that notion is.

David

 
 
 

Making 10 % wine

Post by Davi » Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:46:43


I see that you're talking about fruit wines... but still... the
argument holds... I've had awesome plum wines, cherry wines, blackberry
wines... and they were all well over 10.5%. I think it has a lot more
to do with balancing the acids and other factors, than simply the
*** content.

Let's put it this way. If a fruit *can* ferment beyond 10.5% naturally
(through sugar content), and its flavors change as a result of crossing
that threshold, then perhaps it's *meant* to taste that way when it
completes fermentation.

And you should consider drinking V-8 instead. :)

Cheers,

David

 
 
 

Making 10 % wine

Post by William Frazie » Wed, 25 Oct 2006 22:43:32


David wrote "Let's put it this way. If a fruit *can* ferment beyond 10.5%
naturally

Quote:
> (through sugar content), and its flavors change as a result of crossing
> that threshold, then perhaps it's *meant* to taste that way when it
> completes fermentation.  And you should consider drinking V-8 instead. :)"

David and others,  I belong to the Greater Kansas City Cellarmasters
winemaking club.  We host an amateur winemaking contest every year.  About
1/3 of the wines submitted are fruit wines.  There has always been a debate
within the club as to whether a fruit wine should taste like the fruit it's
made from or if it's OK for a fruit wine taste like "wine" and not
necessarily like fruit.  If you make fruit wines with lower *** and
sweeten them a bit they will taste fruity.  And, there are yeasts which will
promote fruity falvors.  If you make fruit wines at higher *** levels
they will be more wine-like and some people have difficulty telling what the
starting fruit was.  It's a matter of taste and there's a place for both
type wines IMO.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

 
 
 

Making 10 % wine

Post by jim » Sat, 28 Oct 2006 05:46:31


I was thinking of making wine from V8, assuming you mean the vegetable/fruit juice heh heh.
Jim
Quote:

>I see that you're talking about fruit wines... but still... the
> argument holds... I've had awesome plum wines, cherry wines, blackberry
> wines... and they were all well over 10.5%. I think it has a lot more
> to do with balancing the acids and other factors, than simply the
> *** content.

> Let's put it this way. If a fruit *can* ferment beyond 10.5% naturally
> (through sugar content), and its flavors change as a result of crossing
> that threshold, then perhaps it's *meant* to taste that way when it
> completes fermentation.

> And you should consider drinking V-8 instead. :)

> Cheers,

> David

 
 
 

Making 10 % wine

Post by Davi » Sat, 28 Oct 2006 11:50:51


Hi Bill,

Good points. I'm reminded of the fact that wine -- and any fermented
product -- is the result of chemistry and biology. Inevitably, the end
result is far different from what it started out tasting like. For
example... how often does a finished Merlot or Pinot Noir really taste
like the unfermented grapes? Hardly ever. Even after primary ferment,
when the sugars are gone and amino acids have been altered, acid levels
raised or lowered, etc. And so, it is customary to use terms describing
*other* fruits, flavors, aromas, etc., to help convey what the wine
tastes like.

Let's put it another way. I doubt I'll ever see a review for a Merlot
in which the reviewer says, "evokes flavors and aromas of fresh Merlot
grapes". Point made.

I think it's pushing it too far to hope to achieve a fruity wine
product that tastes like the original fruit. Unless you're making a
wine cooler. ;)

Just my thoughts.

Thanks,

David

Quote:
> David and others,  I belong to the Greater Kansas City Cellarmasters
> winemaking club.  We host an amateur winemaking contest every year.  About
> 1/3 of the wines submitted are fruit wines.  There has always been a debate
> within the club as to whether a fruit wine should taste like the fruit it's
> made from or if it's OK for a fruit wine taste like "wine" and not
> necessarily like fruit.  If you make fruit wines with lower *** and
> sweeten them a bit they will taste fruity.  And, there are yeasts which will
> promote fruity falvors.  If you make fruit wines at higher *** levels
> they will be more wine-like and some people have difficulty telling what the
> starting fruit was.  It's a matter of taste and there's a place for both
> type wines IMO.

> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA

 
 
 

Making 10 % wine

Post by Ray Calver » Thu, 02 Nov 2006 02:12:37


Regardless of some of the coments above (I see no mention of 24 brix grapes
in the original artical) I do thing there could be some common sence to
Kime's observations.  At least they should not be blown off out of hand.

California wines are grown in hot dry climate and tend to be high brix and
low acid.  They make excelent rich full bodied high ***e wines.  French
wines and other Europian wines are made from grapes with a shorter growing
season and tend to be lower brix and higher acid fruit and they tend to make
lighter, lower alcohle more acidic wine.  (I know there are exceptions to
both broad statements.)  Both are good for what they are.

Between the two types of grape wine I would say that most fruit other than
grapes tend to be lower brix and higher acid than either California or
European grapes.  Hence I would say that they would be closer to European
and maybe should be made even lower ***.

I know that this is an off the top of my head arguement but to me it
suggests that Kime's observations should be considered.

The other side of the coin is that you should make what you like!  Kraft
your wine to your own taste.

Ray

Just

Quote:
> Does anyone in this group follow the "finding" of the late Robert Kime I
> found in my archives:

> "Robert Kime, food science pilot plant manager at Cornell's New York State
> Agricultural Experiment Station, believes he has found the ***-content
> threshold that separates fine fruit wine from cheap, inferior wine -- what
> the British call "plonk."
> "It's a fine line," says Kime, explaining that when winemakers, commercial
> and domestic, allow the fruit-fermentation process to exceed an ***
> content of 10.5 percent, the wine's flavor can be ruined. Kime, who has
> worked with a number of wineries in the New York Finger Lakes region,
> notes that winemakers invariably sacrifice flavor by making fruit wine
> with the same *** content as wine made from grapes.
> Grape wine can have an *** content as high as 11 or 12 percent and
> still be excellent. However, Kime says, *** is a solvent that can
> react with and dissolve flavor compounds in other fruits and vegetables
> when it reaches levels of 11 percent or higher.
> "Higher *** content vaporizes the flavors, and they escape through the
> bubbler overnight," he says.
> To prevent fruit wine from becoming tasteless or cloying, Kime suggests
> stopping the fermentation cold. When the fermenting fruit or vegetables
> reach about 10.5 percent ***, he halts fermentation by refrigeration
> at 28 degrees Fahrenheit. "

>*** Kruse

 
 
 

Making 10 % wine

Post by pp » Thu, 02 Nov 2006 04:46:46



Quote:

> Between the two types of grape wine I would say that most fruit other than
> grapes tend to be lower brix and higher acid than either California or
> European grapes.  Hence I would say that they would be closer to European
> and maybe should be made even lower ***.

Ray, that's an interesting argument, haven't thought about it that way.
However, most fruit wine recipes I've seen manipulate the must by
adding sugar, water, and often acid, so you could bring it to any
starting configuration you like in terms of sugar and acid levels, with
perhaps some limitations on how much the juice can be diluted for the
result to be balanced. Also, I remember from Ben's past posts on fruit
wines that they behave differently in terms of acid changes during
their life, so that should also influence the comparison.

My guess is it's really mostly a question of style - if you do a dry
light wine then 11% is probably ideal. But if you go for a more
concentrated fruit with some residual sugar, the *** can and
probably should be higher - there is a commercial winery here in BC
that has a blackcurrant dessert wine with *** around 15-16% that's
out of this world.

Pp