PH and Country Wines

PH and Country Wines

Post by A. J. Rawl » Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:49:16



I a struggling with this PH thing.

I do not make wine from grapes because grapes don't grow here in
Alaska and it costs a small fortune to have them shipped in.

I am comfortable adjusting acidity in light wines using an acid test
kit.  I bought a PH meter to help with SO adjustments and acid
adjustments in darker wines.  I tested a wine made from Pomegranate
Juice today  The PH is 3.4 but the wine is so acid that it is
undrinkable.  As I understand from reading 3.4 is a pretty darn good
PH.  The wine needs to have about one third of it volume of H2O added
to bring the acidity down (determined by taste) but that will have a
major effect on PH.

So  What should I look for with fruit/veggie wines?  Is a PH meter a
useful tool?  Where can I find references that discuss other than
grape wines?

Thanks,
A. J.
Anchorage, Alaska, USA
The Anchorage Fishwrapper and Litterbox Liner Press

 
 
 

PH and Country Wines

Post by Paul E. Lehman » Mon, 02 Jul 2007 12:05:15


Quote:

> I a struggling with this PH thing.

> I do not make wine from grapes because grapes
> don't grow here in Alaska and it costs a small
> fortune to have them shipped in.

In that case, I think you are going to have to
just use your taste buds.  pH is important and
meaningful IF you are talking about "grape"
wines.  But, if you are making wines from non
grape fruit, the acids will be a lot different
and you will either have to go with a tried and
proved recipe or through trial and error come up
with one on your own - but the trial and error is
not all that bad - you have to taste a LOT and
that in itself can be an enjoyable experience.

 
 
 

PH and Country Wines

Post by Scot » Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:08:10


could also consider frozen grape juice concentrates or
wine kits for adjusting properties.



Quote:
> I a struggling with this PH thing.

> I do not make wine from grapes because grapes don't grow here in
> Alaska and it costs a small fortune to have them shipped in.

> I am comfortable adjusting acidity in light wines using an acid test
> kit.  I bought a PH meter to help with SO adjustments and acid
> adjustments in darker wines.  I tested a wine made from Pomegranate
> Juice today.  The PH is 3.4 but the wine is so acid that it is
> undrinkable.  As I understand from reading 3.4 is a pretty darn good
> PH.  The wine needs to have about one third of it volume of H2O added
> to bring the acidity down (determined by taste) but that will have a
> major effect on PH.

> So.  What should I look for with fruit/veggie wines?  Is a PH meter a
> useful tool?  Where can I find references that discuss other than
> grape wines?

> Thanks,
> A. J.
> Anchorage, Alaska, USA
> The Anchorage Fishwrapper and Litterbox Liner Press

 
 
 

PH and Country Wines

Post by Casey Wilso » Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:30:18


Hi AJ,
    Haven't heard from you since we discussed the "Fishwrapper" some time
back.
    I love my pH meter, but it isn't much good by itself. I use mine along
with a titrate kit because I can't seem to find that darned end-point
without it.
    My pomegranate ended up with Ph=3.57, TA=0.7, and SG=1.011 when I
bottled it back in March. Obviously, I'm prejudiced but I think it tastes
great.
    With the cold climate, it sounds like a Chardonnay would work great. If
you are interested, I have a couple cans of concentrate and I can figure out
the cost and shipping charges. I'm presuming you are somewhere in the 995nn
ZIP code.

--
Galwaf ar fy nhgyd-Gymry i sefyll yn y bwlch!

     Casey



Quote:
>I a struggling with this PH thing.

> I do not make wine from grapes because grapes don't grow here in
> Alaska and it costs a small fortune to have them shipped in.

> I am comfortable adjusting acidity in light wines using an acid test
> kit.  I bought a PH meter to help with SO adjustments and acid
> adjustments in darker wines.  I tested a wine made from Pomegranate
> Juice today.  The PH is 3.4 but the wine is so acid that it is
> undrinkable.  As I understand from reading 3.4 is a pretty darn good
> PH.  The wine needs to have about one third of it volume of H2O added
> to bring the acidity down (determined by taste) but that will have a
> major effect on PH.

> So.  What should I look for with fruit/veggie wines?  Is a PH meter a
> useful tool?  Where can I find references that discuss other than
> grape wines?

> Thanks,
> A. J.
> Anchorage, Alaska, USA
> The Anchorage Fishwrapper and Litterbox Liner Press

 
 
 

PH and Country Wines

Post by g.. » Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:37:41


A few comments... first, pH and acidity are two different things. It's
possible to have a low pH and a low level of acidity, or conversely,
it's possible to have a high pH and high acidity.  Also, if a wine
isn't degassed or given time to degass, the carbon dioxide still in
solution could effect the measured pH.

Jack Keller's website covers both grape wines and country wines. His
site also has articles that explain pH and acidity in detail. The URL
is: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Greg

 
 
 

PH and Country Wines

Post by AxisOfBeagle » Tue, 03 Jul 2007 02:32:15


A couple folks have already mentioned these items separately, but to
reinforce and to add;
* pH is only one part of the acid story. The other parts are the
actual volume of acid (which you measure by titration) and what the
acids are (paper chromotography test). Point being - trust your palate
more than just a pH meter - if it is too acid, it is. * You could
reduce acidity with some additives, such as potassium bicarbonate. But
bench trial that first to be sure you actually like the result. * You
could blend the pomegranate with some other low acid wine.
* You could, as you've done, dilute the win but that usually ends with
just that; dilute wine with a lot of other things out of balance
(flavor, color, ***). * You culd also sweeten the wine. I made a
dessert pomegranate wine last year. Like you, I had previously
discovered that it is extremely tart. So this last year I added more
sugar than my target *** indicated. I stopped fermentation with
about 5 or 6 % residual sugar. The result is a lively dessert wine
that is still bottle aging.
Good luck. If you make more batches of fruit wine, I recommend
investing in a small acid titration kit.


Quote:

>  I a struggling with this PH thing.

>  I do not make wine from grapes because grapes don't grow here
> inAlaska and it costs a small fortune to have them shipped in.

>  I am comfortable adjusting acidity in light wines using an acid test
> kit.  I bought a PH meter to help with SO adjustments and acid
> adjustments in darker wines.  I tested a wine made from Pomegranate
> Juice today  The PH is 3.4 but the wine is so acid that it is
> undrinkable.  As I understand from reading 3.4 is a pretty darn good
> PH.  The wine needs to have about one third of it volume of H2O added
> to bring the acidity down (determined by taste) but that will have
> amajor effect on PH.

>  So  What should I look for with fruit/veggie wines?  Is a PH meter
> a useful tool?  Where can I find references that discuss other
> thangrape wines?

>  Thanks,
>  A. J.
>  Anchorage, Alaska, USA
>  The Anchorage Fishwrapper and Litterbox Liner Press

--
I'm using an evaluation license of nemo since 36 days.
You should really try it!
http://www.FoundCollection.com/
 
 
 

PH and Country Wines

Post by A. J. Rawl » Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:41:24




Quote:
>Hi AJ,
>    Haven't heard from you since we discussed the "Fishwrapper" some time
>back.
>    I love my pH meter, but it isn't much good by itself. I use mine along
>with a titrate kit because I can't seem to find that darned end-point
>without it.
>    My pomegranate ended up with Ph=3.57, TA=0.7, and SG=1.011 when I
>bottled it back in March. Obviously, I'm prejudiced but I think it tastes
>great.
>    With the cold climate, it sounds like a Chardonnay would work great. If
>you are interested, I have a couple cans of concentrate and I can figure out
>the cost and shipping charges. I'm presuming you are somewhere in the 995nn
>ZIP code.

Hi there.  I am in 99508.

I took my grandkids to the Kenai Peninsula for their first salt water
fishing adventure last weekend.  The seas were calm, the fish were
biting and Grandpa got to be the hero of the day.  I should have
checked on the Fish Wrapper while we were there.

I guess I can use the meter to measure acidity in dark wines.  I read
a lot about how indispensable they were but did not notice that most
of the literature concerned grape wines.  I made that startling
discovery when I got home and started reading after I purchased the
meter.  

I make a few kits each year (Wine Expert Limited Editions) but most of
my winemaking is from fruits and flowers available here in
South-central Alaska.  I usually use my son-in-law's and ex-wife's
taste buds for final adjustments to wines I produce.  I made a few
white wines from Alexander's Sun Country canned concentrates and they
turned out good, but final adjustments were made by taste.  

I have not decided what to do with this Pomegranate yet.  I think I
will bring the acidity down to 7.0 with sugar water adjusted to 1.080
and let it ferment out again.  The Pomegranate taste is intense enough
to handle it.

Later,
A.J.
The Anchorage Fishwrapper and Litterbox Liner Press

 
 
 

PH and Country Wines

Post by Jack » Wed, 04 Jul 2007 05:08:08


Hello, A J -

I'm on the pH meter hunt. Have had a couple of informative replies so far.

What make and model is yours?

And what diameter is the probe? (How large a sample do you need to get a reading
from it?)

Thanks.

Jack

Quote:



> >Hi AJ,
> >    Haven't heard from you since we discussed the "Fishwrapper" some time
> >back.
> >    I love my pH meter, but it isn't much good by itself. I use mine along
> >with a titrate kit because I can't seem to find that darned end-point
> >without it.
> >    My pomegranate ended up with Ph=3.57, TA=0.7, and SG=1.011 when I
> >bottled it back in March. Obviously, I'm prejudiced but I think it tastes
> >great.
> >    With the cold climate, it sounds like a Chardonnay would work great. If
> >you are interested, I have a couple cans of concentrate and I can figure out
> >the cost and shipping charges. I'm presuming you are somewhere in the 995nn
> >ZIP code.

> Hi there.  I am in 99508.

> I took my grandkids to the Kenai Peninsula for their first salt water
> fishing adventure last weekend.  The seas were calm, the fish were
> biting and Grandpa got to be the hero of the day.  I should have
> checked on the Fish Wrapper while we were there.

> I guess I can use the meter to measure acidity in dark wines.  I read
> a lot about how indispensable they were but did not notice that most
> of the literature concerned grape wines.  I made that startling
> discovery when I got home and started reading after I purchased the
> meter.

> I make a few kits each year (Wine Expert Limited Editions) but most of
> my winemaking is from fruits and flowers available here in
> South-central Alaska.  I usually use my son-in-law's and ex-wife's
> taste buds for final adjustments to wines I produce.  I made a few
> white wines from Alexander's Sun Country canned concentrates and they
> turned out good, but final adjustments were made by taste.

> I have not decided what to do with this Pomegranate yet.  I think I
> will bring the acidity down to 7.0 with sugar water adjusted to 1.080
> and let it ferment out again.  The Pomegranate taste is intense enough
> to handle it.

> Later,
> A.J.
> The Anchorage Fishwrapper and Litterbox Liner Press

 
 
 

PH and Country Wines

Post by Joe Sallusti » Thu, 05 Jul 2007 01:04:39



Quote:
> Hello, A J -

> I'm on the pH meter hunt. Have had a couple of informative replies so far.

> What make and model is yours?

> And what diameter is the probe? (How large a sample do you need to get a reading
> from it?)

> Thanks.

> Jack




> > >Hi AJ,
> > >    Haven't heard from you since we discussed the "Fishwrapper" some time
> > >back.
> > >    I love my pH meter, but it isn't much good by itself. I use mine along
> > >with a titrate kit because I can't seem to find that darned end-point
> > >without it.
> > >    My pomegranate ended up with Ph=3.57, TA=0.7, and SG=1.011 when I
> > >bottled it back in March. Obviously, I'm prejudiced but I think it tastes
> > >great.
> > >    With the cold climate, it sounds like a Chardonnay would work great. If
> > >you are interested, I have a couple cans of concentrate and I can figure out
> > >the cost and shipping charges. I'm presuming you are somewhere in the 995nn
> > >ZIP code.

> > Hi there.  I am in 99508.

> > I took my grandkids to the Kenai Peninsula for their first salt water
> > fishing adventure last weekend.  The seas were calm, the fish were
> > biting and Grandpa got to be the hero of the day.  I should have
> > checked on the Fish Wrapper while we were there.

> > I guess I can use the meter to measure acidity in dark wines.  I read
> > a lot about how indispensable they were but did not notice that most
> > of the literature concerned grape wines.  I made that startling
> > discovery when I got home and started reading after I purchased the
> > meter.

> > I make a few kits each year (Wine Expert Limited Editions) but most of
> > my winemaking is from fruits and flowers available here in
> > South-central Alaska.  I usually use my son-in-law's and ex-wife's
> > taste buds for final adjustments to wines I produce.  I made a few
> > white wines from Alexander's Sun Country canned concentrates and they
> > turned out good, but final adjustments were made by taste.

> > I have not decided what to do with this Pomegranate yet.  I think I
> > will bring the acidity down to 7.0 with sugar water adjusted to 1.080
> > and let it ferment out again.  The Pomegranate taste is intense enough
> > to handle it.

> > Later,
> > A.J.
> > The Anchorage Fishwrapper and Litterbox Liner Press- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

I like the Hanna pHep5 for the price.  you need around 10 ml to 20 ml
for a sample.

Joe

 
 
 

PH and Country Wines

Post by Jack » Thu, 05 Jul 2007 02:47:35


Thank you, Joe.

Now can you tell me how I killed my yeast? Tried twice to make a starter solution for
faster start in the musts. Both failed.

Activated the yeast (EC1118, K1 V1116), nice foam after 30 minutes. Added it to a
solution of water (a cupful, room temp), a tsp sugar, and juice from a lemon. Second
try, used a tsp yeast nutrient (DAP), and 1/4 tsp citric acid instead of the lemon.

Foam died in both attempts over a 12 hour period. Each time, a second pack of the same
type of yeast was activated and pitched directly into must, and worked. Slow start,
but nice head after a couple of days.

Quote:


> > Hello, A J -

> > I'm on the pH meter hunt. Have had a couple of informative replies so far.

> > What make and model is yours?

> > And what diameter is the probe? (How large a sample do you need to get a reading
> > from it?)

> > Thanks.

> > Jack




> > > >Hi AJ,
> > > >    Haven't heard from you since we discussed the "Fishwrapper" some time
> > > >back.
> > > >    I love my pH meter, but it isn't much good by itself. I use mine along
> > > >with a titrate kit because I can't seem to find that darned end-point
> > > >without it.
> > > >    My pomegranate ended up with Ph=3.57, TA=0.7, and SG=1.011 when I
> > > >bottled it back in March. Obviously, I'm prejudiced but I think it tastes
> > > >great.
> > > >    With the cold climate, it sounds like a Chardonnay would work great. If
> > > >you are interested, I have a couple cans of concentrate and I can figure out
> > > >the cost and shipping charges. I'm presuming you are somewhere in the 995nn
> > > >ZIP code.

> > > Hi there.  I am in 99508.

> > > I took my grandkids to the Kenai Peninsula for their first salt water
> > > fishing adventure last weekend.  The seas were calm, the fish were
> > > biting and Grandpa got to be the hero of the day.  I should have
> > > checked on the Fish Wrapper while we were there.

> > > I guess I can use the meter to measure acidity in dark wines.  I read
> > > a lot about how indispensable they were but did not notice that most
> > > of the literature concerned grape wines.  I made that startling
> > > discovery when I got home and started reading after I purchased the
> > > meter.

> > > I make a few kits each year (Wine Expert Limited Editions) but most of
> > > my winemaking is from fruits and flowers available here in
> > > South-central Alaska.  I usually use my son-in-law's and ex-wife's
> > > taste buds for final adjustments to wines I produce.  I made a few
> > > white wines from Alexander's Sun Country canned concentrates and they
> > > turned out good, but final adjustments were made by taste.

> > > I have not decided what to do with this Pomegranate yet.  I think I
> > > will bring the acidity down to 7.0 with sugar water adjusted to 1.080
> > > and let it ferment out again.  The Pomegranate taste is intense enough
> > > to handle it.

> > > Later,
> > > A.J.
> > > The Anchorage Fishwrapper and Litterbox Liner Press- Hide quoted text -

> > - Show quoted text -

> I like the Hanna pHep5 for the price.  you need around 10 ml to 20 ml
> for a sample.

> Joe

 
 
 

PH and Country Wines

Post by Joe Sallusti » Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:52:45



Quote:
> Thank you, Joe.

> Now can you tell me how I killed my yeast? Tried twice to make a starter solution for
> faster start in the musts. Both failed.

> Activated the yeast (EC1118, K1 V1116), nice foam after 30 minutes. Added it to a
> solution of water (a cupful, room temp), a tsp sugar, and juice from a lemon. Second
> try, used a tsp yeast nutrient (DAP), and 1/4 tsp citric acid instead of the lemon.

> Foam died in both attempts over a 12 hour period. Each time, a second pack of the same
> type of yeast was activated and pitched directly into must, and worked. Slow start,
> but nice head after a couple of days.

I guess I would opt for the lemon juice being the culprit, nothing
else sounds off.  1 lemon is usually around 2 ounces, that could have
added more acid than you think.  I don't do starters often but when i
do I just hydrate the yeast per instructions and then use the must
itself as the starter.  I pull off about 8 ounces, when it's going
triple it and than once it is going again, I'm adding it to the batch.
 
 
 

PH and Country Wines

Post by Ray Calver » Wed, 11 Jul 2007 06:50:35


A.J.  The pH meter is still useful for country wines, just not necessarily
in the same way.  First, as Casey says, they are very usefull in titration
and finding the end point.  Als, they are still useful to determine how much
S to add.  You will just not necessarily be able to get the pH down to where
you add a minimum.  But you can still tell how much to add.  Also, if you
can not get the pH down to a good range and at the same time the the acidity
into a good tasting range, then adjust to taste and realize that the wine
will just not have the storage life that a perfect wine would have.  You may
just have to drink it up in 2 years instead of 5.  Life can be tough.

It might be a better idea to make a blending wine rather than try to restart
the pomegranet.  It should keep well in long term bulk aging as it is so it
is not in any danger.  You might make a low acid wine such as a Welch's
Niagara from frozen concentrate and use it to blend with.  The pomegranet
should dominate the niagar very well but the niagara will make a good
blending wine that will add vinuosity.  I like to make miagara wine and keep
it around for blending.

Ray



Quote:


>>Hi AJ,
>>    Haven't heard from you since we discussed the "Fishwrapper" some time
>>back.
>>    I love my pH meter, but it isn't much good by itself. I use mine along
>>with a titrate kit because I can't seem to find that darned end-point
>>without it.
>>    My pomegranate ended up with Ph=3.57, TA=0.7, and SG=1.011 when I
>>bottled it back in March. Obviously, I'm prejudiced but I think it tastes
>>great.
>>    With the cold climate, it sounds like a Chardonnay would work great.
>> If
>>you are interested, I have a couple cans of concentrate and I can figure
>>out
>>the cost and shipping charges. I'm presuming you are somewhere in the
>>995nn
>>ZIP code.

> Hi there.  I am in 99508.

> I took my grandkids to the Kenai Peninsula for their first salt water
> fishing adventure last weekend.  The seas were calm, the fish were
> biting and Grandpa got to be the hero of the day.  I should have
> checked on the Fish Wrapper while we were there.

> I guess I can use the meter to measure acidity in dark wines.  I read
> a lot about how indispensable they were but did not notice that most
> of the literature concerned grape wines.  I made that startling
> discovery when I got home and started reading after I purchased the
> meter.

> I make a few kits each year (Wine Expert Limited Editions) but most of
> my winemaking is from fruits and flowers available here in
> South-central Alaska.  I usually use my son-in-law's and ex-wife's
> taste buds for final adjustments to wines I produce.  I made a few
> white wines from Alexander's Sun Country canned concentrates and they
> turned out good, but final adjustments were made by taste.

> I have not decided what to do with this Pomegranate yet.  I think I
> will bring the acidity down to 7.0 with sugar water adjusted to 1.080
> and let it ferment out again.  The Pomegranate taste is intense enough
> to handle it.

> Later,
> A.J.
> The Anchorage Fishwrapper and Litterbox Liner Press