Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by Mike » Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:00:00



Hi All -

On Saturday I purchased some Seyval Blanc juice from a winery in Canada
(I've dealt with them before and their product is always good).  The
winemaker said that the juice was sulfited but not innoculated with
yeast yet.  He gave me some yeast (EC1118) to innoculate the juice
with.  The sugar level was (and is still) about 21.5 brix and the free
sulfur is about 70 ppm.  I innoculated on Saturday PM and had no
fermentation as of Tuesday morning.  I zapped it with more yeast Tuesday
PM and as of this AM still nothing (not even a slight fizz).  What the
heck is going on here?

Mike

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by Peter H. Jord » Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Mike K schrieb:

Quote:
> Hi All -

> On Saturday I purchased some Seyval Blanc juice from a winery in Canada
> (I've dealt with them before and their product is always good).  The
> winemaker said that the juice was sulfited but not innoculated with
> yeast yet.  He gave me some yeast (EC1118) to innoculate the juice
> with.  The sugar level was (and is still) about 21.5 brix and the free
> sulfur is about 70 ppm.  I innoculated on Saturday PM and had no
> fermentation as of Tuesday morning.  I zapped it with more yeast Tuesday
> PM and as of this AM still nothing (not even a slight fizz).  What the
> heck is going on here?

> Mike

Hello Mike,

few tips :

1) The sulfur is quite (too ) high

2) make a starter culture with your yeast in 500 ml unsulfited wine and when
the fermettation is heavy, add this to your must.

3) Increase the temperture to about 25 degrees Celsius

There is not much more, what you can do ...
--
    Peter H. Jordan      Weingut JORDAN & JORDAN
      (Winemaker)

--- Life is too short to drink bad wine ---

Der Saarwein : "http://www.saarwein.com"
Wein Forum   : "http://www.saarwein.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi"

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by Mike » Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Peter -

Thanks for the reply.  In lieu of having any extra juice available, will
sugar water work to get the yeast going (madew to approximately same
brix)?

Mike

Quote:

> Mike K schrieb:

> > Hi All -

> > On Saturday I purchased some Seyval Blanc juice from a winery in Canada
> > (I've dealt with them before and their product is always good).  The
> > winemaker said that the juice was sulfited but not innoculated with
> > yeast yet.  He gave me some yeast (EC1118) to innoculate the juice
> > with.  The sugar level was (and is still) about 21.5 brix and the free
> > sulfur is about 70 ppm.  I innoculated on Saturday PM and had no
> > fermentation as of Tuesday morning.  I zapped it with more yeast Tuesday
> > PM and as of this AM still nothing (not even a slight fizz).  What the
> > heck is going on here?

> > Mike

> Hello Mike,

> few tips :

> 1) The sulfur is quite (too ) high

> 2) make a starter culture with your yeast in 500 ml unsulfited wine and when
> the fermettation is heavy, add this to your must.

> 3) Increase the temperture to about 25 degrees Celsius

> There is not much more, what you can do ...
> --
>     Peter H. Jordan      Weingut JORDAN & JORDAN
>       (Winemaker)

> --- Life is too short to drink bad wine ---

> Der Saarwein : "http://www.saarwein.com"
> Wein Forum   : "http://www.saarwein.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi"

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by DOUG EVAN » Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Im wondering what yeast you used on your second time of pitching.  Your
Sulfite, I dont think is that bad.  I have not had much luck with the type
of yeast that you are using.  I've had Great luck with D-47.  Fast starter.
Try some pastur Champagne yeast, rehydrated first in a starter solution.

--
Doug Evans
VinBrew Supply
740/756-4314

Quote:

>Hi All -

>On Saturday I purchased some Seyval Blanc juice from a winery in Canada
>(I've dealt with them before and their product is always good).  The
>winemaker said that the juice was sulfited but not innoculated with
>yeast yet.  He gave me some yeast (EC1118) to innoculate the juice
>with.  The sugar level was (and is still) about 21.5 brix and the free
>sulfur is about 70 ppm.  I innoculated on Saturday PM and had no
>fermentation as of Tuesday morning.  I zapped it with more yeast Tuesday
>PM and as of this AM still nothing (not even a slight fizz).  What the
>heck is going on here?

>Mike

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by Peter H. Jord » Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Mike,

also sugar water works, but it dilute your wine ... It is better to use a grape
juice.
The reason in making a first yeats batch is to increase the number of working
yeats cells dramatically. This is a change to get the fermentation starting even
with higher sulfites. There are also more sulfite tolerant yeasts on the market,
but the principle is the same, try to get as much working yeasts in your batch.

Have success ..

Mike K schrieb:

Quote:
> Peter -

> Thanks for the reply.  In lieu of having any extra juice available, will
> sugar water work to get the yeast going (madew to approximately same
> brix)?

> Mike


> > Mike K schrieb:

> > > Hi All -

> > > On Saturday I purchased some Seyval Blanc juice from a winery in Canada
> > > (I've dealt with them before and their product is always good).  The
> > > winemaker said that the juice was sulfited but not innoculated with
> > > yeast yet.  He gave me some yeast (EC1118) to innoculate the juice
> > > with.  The sugar level was (and is still) about 21.5 brix and the free
> > > sulfur is about 70 ppm.  I innoculated on Saturday PM and had no
> > > fermentation as of Tuesday morning.  I zapped it with more yeast Tuesday
> > > PM and as of this AM still nothing (not even a slight fizz).  What the
> > > heck is going on here?

> > > Mike

> > Hello Mike,

> > few tips :

> > 1) The sulfur is quite (too ) high

> > 2) make a starter culture with your yeast in 500 ml unsulfited wine and when
> > the fermettation is heavy, add this to your must.

> > 3) Increase the temperture to about 25 degrees Celsius

> > There is not much more, what you can do ...
> > --
> >     Peter H. Jordan      Weingut JORDAN & JORDAN
> >       (Winemaker)

> > --- Life is too short to drink bad wine ---

> > Der Saarwein : "http://www.saarwein.com"
> > Wein Forum   : "http://www.saarwein.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi"

--
    Peter H. Jordan      Weingut JORDAN & JORDAN
      (Winemaker)

--- Life is too short to drink bad wine ---

Der Saarwein : "http://www.saarwein.com"
Wein Forum   : "http://www.saarwein.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi"

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by Peter H. Jord » Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Addition to my last post :

Better than pure sugar water is to use your must and dilute the must with 5 times
the water (and add sugar of course), so you decrease the sulfite level to about 15
- 20 ppm. The fermentation then should be always possible. If this batch is
heavily working than pour it into the other batch and think on a higher
temperature. I cannot guarantee for success, but this is a possible way.

Mike K schrieb:

Quote:
> Peter -

> Thanks for the reply.  In lieu of having any extra juice available, will
> sugar water work to get the yeast going (madew to approximately same
> brix)?

> Mike


> > Mike K schrieb:

> > > Hi All -

> > > On Saturday I purchased some Seyval Blanc juice from a winery in Canada
> > > (I've dealt with them before and their product is always good).  The
> > > winemaker said that the juice was sulfited but not innoculated with
> > > yeast yet.  He gave me some yeast (EC1118) to innoculate the juice
> > > with.  The sugar level was (and is still) about 21.5 brix and the free
> > > sulfur is about 70 ppm.  I innoculated on Saturday PM and had no
> > > fermentation as of Tuesday morning.  I zapped it with more yeast Tuesday
> > > PM and as of this AM still nothing (not even a slight fizz).  What the
> > > heck is going on here?

> > > Mike

> > Hello Mike,

> > few tips :

> > 1) The sulfur is quite (too ) high

> > 2) make a starter culture with your yeast in 500 ml unsulfited wine and when
> > the fermettation is heavy, add this to your must.

> > 3) Increase the temperture to about 25 degrees Celsius

> > There is not much more, what you can do ...
> > --
> >     Peter H. Jordan      Weingut JORDAN & JORDAN
> >       (Winemaker)

> > --- Life is too short to drink bad wine ---

> > Der Saarwein : "http://www.saarwein.com"
> > Wein Forum   : "http://www.saarwein.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi"

--
    Peter H. Jordan      Weingut JORDAN & JORDAN
      (Winemaker)

--- Life is too short to drink bad wine ---

Der Saarwein : "http://www.saarwein.com"
Wein Forum   : "http://www.saarwein.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi"

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by Mr. Fred A. Droe » Sat, 19 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Subject: Re: Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

I can't add much to what Peter Jordan recommended.  He's a pro.  
Definitely too much sulfite.  You didn't say what the pH of the must
is, but if pH is anything below about 3.8 the sulfite is way too high.  
I've pick Seyval here in MO, where it is much warmer, that had 21.5
Brix with pH of 3.1.  I doubt that the pH would be much, if any, higher
in the cooler Canadian climate.  70ppm sulfite at pH 3.1 would be in
the "killer" zone.
   Do what Peter recommends with a low sulfite starter.  I was going to
recommend "Prise de Mousse" yeast as tolerant of harsh conditions, but
I think it may be the same, basically, as EC-1118.
   I hesitate to recommend this, but I have read that free sulfite
level can be reduced by racking with aeration.  The air oxidizes some
of the free SO2.  You also run the risk of oxidizing the juice and/or
introducing spoilage organisms.  I have never tried this, but if you
do, I would think you should do it before introducing the starter that
Peter recommends to the main volume of juice.  But then, if you don't
get something started, you will soon have a large batch of something
foul and it won't be "edel faul" to borrow a term from Peter's part of
the wine world.
Fred

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by NomDeNett » Sat, 19 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Mike, Peter, Fred, et al...:

I'm certainly no expert; but I'm a little confused by the alarm over the 70
PPM SO2.

It's my understanding that 70 PPM is optimum for a white wine must with a Ph
of 3.40, and is at least acceptable for Phs from 3.1 - 3.5.  However; even
at a very low Ph; I do not think that a 70 PPM concentration of SO2 should
stun ANY Lalvin yeast.

Why not cool the must to about 60 deg F (15 deg C), NO COOLER, and add 2
packets (per 6 gal [US] of must) of Lalvin K1V-1116 yeast.

K1V is a yeast bred to tolerate high concentrations of SO2 AND to Enhance
the varietal character of Seyval Blanc.  A perfect combination for Mike's
problem!

Also; I would add 5g of yeast nutrient on days 2 & 4 after adding the
rehydrated yeast & I would ferment without an airlock for the first 4 days.

If this doesn't get things going....You might not have grape juice after
all!!

Just some ideas...
-Ed
--
"Wine is sunlight, held together by water..."
 -Louis Pasteur

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by Peter H. Jord » Sun, 20 Sep 1998 04:00:00


NomDeNette schrieb:

Quote:
> Mike, Peter, Fred, et al...:

> I'm certainly no expert; but I'm a little confused by the alarm over the 70
> PPM SO2.

> It's my understanding that 70 PPM is optimum for a white wine must with a Ph
> of 3.40, and is at least acceptable for Phs from 3.1 - 3.5.  However; even
> at a very low Ph; I do not think that a 70 PPM concentration of SO2 should
> stun ANY Lalvin yeast.

We use a lot of Lalvin yeasts in Germany, too. If the amount of sulfite is "free
sulfite", than it is definetely too high to start a proper fermentation. There
are sulfite tolerant yeasts on the market, but they alos work on lower silfite
levels, best. I do not kno the pH level of the must obove, but in my opinion the
only problem is the sulfite. Yeast nutrients are okay, but the y don't help
starting a fermentation, they could be used (if needed) during a working
fermentation to finish it properly.
--
    Peter H. Jordan      Weingut JORDAN & JORDAN
      (Winemaker)

--- Life is too short to drink bad wine ---

Der Saarwein : "http://www.saarwein.com"
Wein Forum   : "http://www.saarwein.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi"

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by Mr. Fred A. Droe » Mon, 21 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Subject: Re: Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

I still agree with Peter, though would be more certain if I knew if
70ppm was "free" SO2, and if I knew the pH level.  70ppm is a good
dose for pH 3.75 AFTER fermentation; pH 3.4 only needs 32ppm, pH 3.1
only 16ppm.  Those are free SO2 levels.  I had a problem with a very
slow fermentation, start to finish, once when I added an initial dose
of 50ppm to a must of pH3.1.  That was the amount added, free would
have been less, I didn't measure it.  A professional winery consultant
I met at a seminar informed me that I was lucky it started at all.  
Since then, if I add any sulfite at all before fermentation, it is
only 50% of the recommended amount for the pH of that particular
must.
Fred

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by Bryan Caspe » Mon, 21 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Orange juice provides an excellent starter culture. It has both the natural sugars and
the acid qualities required by the yeast.  Orange juice also will not impart any of
it's flavor into your wine.

Bryan Casper

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by Mike » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Hi All -

Thanks for all of your input.  I finally got the wine started.  I made
the starter as Peter Jordan suggested and used the K1V-1116 yeast (along
with some yeast nutrient and a little energizer) on Friday PM.
Unfortunately, I didn't have the pH so that may have answered some
questions (I kept forgetting to bring it to work with me). By Sunday AM
it was happy, happy.  

I do have another question, though.  As it bubbles away, I noticed a
nice pear smell coming from the air lock (probably a low BP ester of
some sort). I am fermenting at between 65-70F.  Wouldn't it be better to
keep this in the wine?  How do commercial wineries prevent all of the
olfactory components from leaving their product during fermentation?

Mike
Mike

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by Bryant Johnso » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00


I've only been making wine for about a year now, but my first and only
"large" batch of wine (15 gallons) was of Concords that I picked from a
recently deceased friend's vinyard.  I harvested the grapes the morning
after the first frost of the season last year and fermented in my ba***t
(in Michigan) at approximately 50F.  While the secondary fermentation was
slow after racking into my carboys (approximately 3-4 months), the aroma in
the samples I've taken is marvelous.  I definitely plan to slow ferment
most of my wines in the future.  Any problems with this or suggestions?

Bryant Johnson


Quote:
> Mike K wrote on Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:17:12 -0400:

> > Hi All -

> > Thanks for all of your input.  I finally got the wine started.

> A sigh of relief!!!  Wonderful.   It's always interesting to hear about

> the differing fermentation aromas.  My Seyval, in MO, usually runs to

> peaches, pineapple, and/or grapefruit during fermentation with

> Epernay-2 yeast & somewhat warmer temperature.

>    The way wineries preserve as much aroma as possible is with slow,

> cool fermentation; slow yeast at 60F, sometimes lower.  I've even heard

> of fermenting in the upper 40's, though a friend of mine had a 5 gal

> batch of Vignoles stop too soon last year while fermenting at 45F.  I

> fermented my batch in the upper 60s with no apparent loss of nose

> compared to his.  Both batches from the same vineyard rows.
> Fred

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by Mr. Fred A. Droe » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Mike K wrote on Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:17:12 -0400:

Quote:

> Hi All -

> Thanks for all of your input.  I finally got the wine started.

A sigh of relief!!!  Wonderful.   It's always interesting to hear about
the differing fermentation aromas.  My Seyval, in MO, usually runs to
peaches, pineapple, and/or grapefruit during fermentation with
Epernay-2 yeast & somewhat warmer temperature.

   The way wineries preserve as much aroma as possible is with slow,
cool fermentation; slow yeast at 60F, sometimes lower.  I've even heard
of fermenting in the upper 40's, though a friend of mine had a 5 gal
batch of Vignoles stop too soon last year while fermenting at 45F.  I
fermented my batch in the upper 60s with no apparent loss of nose
compared to his.  Both batches from the same vineyard rows.
Fred

 
 
 

Fermentation Will Not Start: HELP

Post by Peter H. Jord » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Mike K schrieb:

Quote:
> Hi All -

> Thanks for all of your input.  I finally got the wine started.  I made
> the starter as Peter Jordan suggested and used the K1V-1116 yeast (along
> with some yeast nutrient and a little energizer) on Friday PM.
> Unfortunately, I didn't have the pH so that may have answered some
> questions (I kept forgetting to bring it to work with me). By Sunday AM
> it was happy, happy.

We are happy, too that the fermentation now starts, keep us informed.

Quote:
> I do have another question, though.  As it bubbles away, I noticed a
> nice pear smell coming from the air lock (probably a low BP ester of
> some sort). I am fermenting at between 65-70F.  Wouldn't it be better to
> keep this in the wine?  How do commercial wineries prevent all of the
> olfactory components from leaving their product during fermentation?

Congratulation Mike, this is one of the best questions in this group for the
last time. You have _absolutely_ right. Every nice smell in your kitchen or
in the cellars of a winery is something missing in the wine afterwards. If a
winefriend steps down in a cellar of a winery and there he smells something
beautiefull - then something has gone wrong with the wine ...

Commercial wineries trie to ferment as slowly as possible with only small
and slow bubbles, because the bubbels are working also as an "export" device
for aroma components. As a hobby winemaker you have no chance, just try to
calm down the fermentation.

Greetings from Germany

Quote:
> Mike
> Mike

--
    Peter H. Jordan      Weingut JORDAN & JORDAN
      (Winemaker)

--- Life is too short to drink bad wine ---

Der Saarwein : "http://www.saarwein.com"
Wein Forum   : "http://www.saarwein.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi"