Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by Don Shesnick » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:05:15



Thought  everyone might be interested in this re-post of Oak Chip
Tips from Ed Goist.

Don

-----

Here are some general tips on using chips:

ADDING OAK CHIPS:
Oaking levels vary a great deal based upon personal preference. To
determine the oaking characters you find appealing, you will need to
experiment with respect to:
-Type of oak used (granular, chips or cubes)
-Time introduced (at the beginning, sometime in the middle, when bulk
aging, or some combination of the three)
-Usage Concentration (most recommended dosages are in the range of
0.25 - .70 oz/USGal [1.8 - 5.2 g/L])
-Duration of exposure (anywhere from 2 weeks to 1+ year [generally, the
higher the concentration, the lower the required exposure time])

I can tell you though, that, based on extensive experimentation &
personal oaking preferences, here is what I have successfully used with
medium & full-bodied reds:

1.  During fermentation: "Oak-Mor" American white Oak Powder, used
untreated (right out of the bag) at about 1.7 grams per liter.  After
the fermentation simply rack the wine as usual.

2.  After the wine is finished (after fining, cold stabilization & bulk
aging): Medium toast, French Allier white oak chips (from "World
Cooperage"), used after being "heat sanitized" for 30 minutes in an
oven at 250F, at a rate of 0.67 oz per USGal (5.0 g/L) with a contact
time of 30 - 35 days. Rack off of the chips, adjust free SO2 levels &
bulk age for an additional 30+ days.

I do not do any additional fining after the oaking & I do not filter. I
love the added, deep color from the chips. This process will give you
significant vanilla, cedar & tobacco oak descriptors.

Finally; this vintage,  I am experimenting with a new oaking process on
all of my reds (California Rhone blend, California Petit Sirah & Estate
Baco Noir).  Specifically; I am using StaVin
(http://www.stavin.com/homewinemaker.htm) , medium toast French oak
cubes introduced into the primary fermenter & retained in the wine
throughout the entire process (the cubes are rinsed, sanitized [with
my ?One-Step? sanitizing solution, not heat sanitized], re-rinsed and
added back at each racking). I am using the cubes at the upper range of
the recommended concentration (3.5 oz per 6 USGallons [4.31g/L]).  So
far the results of this process are encouraging.

Experiment and have fun!

Hope This Helps:
Ed

 
 
 

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by J Reite » Sat, 16 Feb 2002 04:24:00


Don,
   why are you using _any_ cleanser on your oak chips when your wines will
already have SO2 in them?
Joanne

Quote:

> Thought  everyone might be interested in this re-post of Oak Chip
> Tips from Ed Goist.

> Don

> -----

> Here are some general tips on using chips:

> ADDING OAK CHIPS:
> Oaking levels vary a great deal based upon personal preference. To
> determine the oaking characters you find appealing, you will need to
> experiment with respect to:
> -Type of oak used (granular, chips or cubes)
> -Time introduced (at the beginning, sometime in the middle, when bulk
> aging, or some combination of the three)
> -Usage Concentration (most recommended dosages are in the range of
> 0.25 - .70 oz/USGal [1.8 - 5.2 g/L])
> -Duration of exposure (anywhere from 2 weeks to 1+ year [generally, the
> higher the concentration, the lower the required exposure time])

> I can tell you though, that, based on extensive experimentation &
> personal oaking preferences, here is what I have successfully used with
> medium & full-bodied reds:

> 1.  During fermentation: "Oak-Mor" American white Oak Powder, used
> untreated (right out of the bag) at about 1.7 grams per liter.  After
> the fermentation simply rack the wine as usual.

> 2.  After the wine is finished (after fining, cold stabilization & bulk
> aging): Medium toast, French Allier white oak chips (from "World
> Cooperage"), used after being "heat sanitized" for 30 minutes in an
> oven at 250F, at a rate of 0.67 oz per USGal (5.0 g/L) with a contact
> time of 30 - 35 days. Rack off of the chips, adjust free SO2 levels &
> bulk age for an additional 30+ days.

> I do not do any additional fining after the oaking & I do not filter. I
> love the added, deep color from the chips. This process will give you
> significant vanilla, cedar & tobacco oak descriptors.

> Finally; this vintage,  I am experimenting with a new oaking process on
> all of my reds (California Rhone blend, California Petit Sirah & Estate
> Baco Noir).  Specifically; I am using StaVin
> (http://www.stavin.com/homewinemaker.htm) , medium toast French oak
> cubes introduced into the primary fermenter & retained in the wine
> throughout the entire process (the cubes are rinsed, sanitized [with
> my ?One-Step? sanitizing solution, not heat sanitized], re-rinsed and
> added back at each racking). I am using the cubes at the upper range of
> the recommended concentration (3.5 oz per 6 USGallons [4.31g/L]).  So
> far the results of this process are encouraging.

> Experiment and have fun!

> Hope This Helps:
> Ed


 
 
 

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by Don Shesnick » Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:58:05


Quote:
> Don,
>    why are you using _any_ cleanser on your oak chips when your wines will
> already have SO2 in them?
> Joanne

This post was not mine but a re-post of someone elses. In
any case I think people use a cleanser because, correct me
if I'm wrong, SO2 inhibits growth but does not sanitize or
cleanse.

Don

 
 
 

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by J Reite » Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:32:49


Don,
   you can use SO2 to sanitize. Some people leave a solution of SO2 in their
carboys and then seal with plastic stretch wrap and *** bans on the mouth
of the carboy.
   As for the cleanser part, why in the ***y blazes would _anyone_ want to
use a cleanser on their oak chips/ beans/etc? It is not needed in the
slightest. It's like using dish soap to get the last bit of debris off of a
mushroom when a thorough rinsing in water will do.
Joanne


Quote:

> > Don,
> >    why are you using _any_ cleanser on your oak chips when your wines
will
> > already have SO2 in them?
> > Joanne

> This post was not mine but a re-post of someone elses. In
> any case I think people use a cleanser because, correct me
> if I'm wrong, SO2 inhibits growth but does not sanitize or
> cleanse.

> Don

 
 
 

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by Eddie Vanderzeeu » Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:43:08


Why do things the simple way when you can do it the hard way. All of us are
so busy sterilizing while all we can do is sanitizing. It is so hard to just
let mother nature do her job.
Eddie V.


Quote:
> Don,
>    you can use SO2 to sanitize. Some people leave a solution of SO2 in
their
> carboys and then seal with plastic stretch wrap and *** bans on the
mouth
> of the carboy.
>    As for the cleanser part, why in the ***y blazes would _anyone_ want
to
> use a cleanser on their oak chips/ beans/etc? It is not needed in the
> slightest. It's like using dish soap to get the last bit of debris off of
a
> mushroom when a thorough rinsing in water will do.
> Joanne



> > > Don,
> > >    why are you using _any_ cleanser on your oak chips when your wines
> will
> > > already have SO2 in them?
> > > Joanne

> > This post was not mine but a re-post of someone elses. In
> > any case I think people use a cleanser because, correct me
> > if I'm wrong, SO2 inhibits growth but does not sanitize or
> > cleanse.

> > Don

 
 
 

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by J Reite » Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:57:02


My point exactly Eddie,
    none of the SO2 or One-Step is necessary or needed.
Joanne

Quote:
> Why do things the simple way when you can do it the hard way. All of us
are
> so busy sterilizing while all we can do is sanitizing. It is so hard to
just
> let mother nature do her job.
> Eddie V.



> > Don,
> >    you can use SO2 to sanitize. Some people leave a solution of SO2 in
> their
> > carboys and then seal with plastic stretch wrap and *** bans on the
> mouth
> > of the carboy.
> >    As for the cleanser part, why in the ***y blazes would _anyone_
want
> to
> > use a cleanser on their oak chips/ beans/etc? It is not needed in the
> > slightest. It's like using dish soap to get the last bit of debris off
of
> a
> > mushroom when a thorough rinsing in water will do.
> > Joanne



> > > > Don,
> > > >    why are you using _any_ cleanser on your oak chips when your
wines
> > will
> > > > already have SO2 in them?
> > > > Joanne

> > > This post was not mine but a re-post of someone elses. In
> > > any case I think people use a cleanser because, correct me
> > > if I'm wrong, SO2 inhibits growth but does not sanitize or
> > > cleanse.

> > > Don

 
 
 

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by Don Shesnick » Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:48:00


Quote:
>    you can use SO2 to sanitize.

Jack Keller stated in a recent post on Dandelion wine:

 "Sulfite does not stop fermentation."

If SO2 can be used to sanitize why would it not stop
a fermentation? Lum's book does state that small
quantities of sulfer dioxide can eliminate many
undesirable bacteria". Hmmm...what's the answer.
I've heard before that SO2 can inhibit growth but
does not sanitize.

Don

 
 
 

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by Tom » Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:57:24



Quote:

> >    you can use SO2 to sanitize.

> Jack Keller stated in a recent post on Dandelion wine:

>  "Sulfite does not stop fermentation."

> If SO2 can be used to sanitize why would it not stop
> a fermentation?

If you put enough sulfite into an active fermentation to stop it, you
wouldn't be able to drink it!

Tom S

 
 
 

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by SchlossGois » Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:26:28



Quote:
> My point exactly Eddie,
>     none of the SO2 or One-Step is necessary or needed.

-----------------------

Hi All:

It seems that I have caused quite a debate without even being on the
newsgroup.  Is this a sign of fame or infamy? :-)

Anyways, I recommend "washing off" (this would be better terminology than
sanitizing) one's oak cubes with a One-Step (or another percarbonate)
solution prior to transferring them to the new carboy, for the following
three reasons:

1.  When the cubes have been in the wine for a fair amount of time (say 3-4
months) they will sink to the bottom of the vessel.  When this occurs, they
will come into contact with the lees.  As a result they will get quite
"muckie".

Therefore, to avoid transferring excessive dregs into the new carboy when
the cubes are transferred, they should be rinsed before being transferred.

2.  If one has a chlorinated water source, the use of tap water to rinse
either wood or cork should be avoided.

For example, after I have racked the wine off of the dregs into a fresh,
sanitized carboy, I will dump the cubes/dregs into a colander and will rinse
the cubes thoroughly with the percarbonate cleanser/sanitizer.

Rinsing contact wood (including barrels & corks) with either a percarbonate
solution, or clean, de-chlorinated water is safer than using tap water due
to the presence of chlorine in most urban tap water.

The presence of chlorine has been linked to the formation of
2,4,6-trichloroanisol (TCA) in both cork & oak.  TCA is responsible for cork
taint, & as such it is always best to do everything in one's power to
prevent its formation.

The presence of a small amount of hydrogen peroxide in the precarbonate
cleanser/sanitizer will neutralize the chlorine in the tap water used to
make it, thereby reducing the risk of TCA.

3.  Red wines which have been properly sulfited, based on pH, can still be
quite susceptible to the formation of flor yeasts.  I have found that
percarbonates are very effective at removing & inhibiting flor yeasts
without adversely affecting the organoleptic characteristics of a wine.

Prosit:
Ed,
Odyssey Cellars
--
The Viticulture FAQ & Glossary - http://www.itsmysite.com/vitfaq

          "I like on the table, when we're speaking,
           The light of a bottle of intelligent wine."
                              -Pablo Neruda

 
 
 

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by Don Shesnick » Thu, 21 Feb 2002 01:02:34


Quote:

> If you put enough sulfite into an active fermentation to stop it, you
> wouldn't be able to drink it!

Bottom line, can SO2 be used to sanitize or is
it just an inhibitor? I've seen lots of postings
here saying "just sanitize it with potassium
metabisulphite" or "add SO2 to sanitize it" and
in the back of my mind there was a previous post
that was bothering me and it was something to the
effect that SO2 does not sanitize.

Let's define the terms - sanitize means kill
microorganisms and inhibit means stop but not
kill in which case they can return. I would
think that you want to sanitize a stirring
rod for example and not just inhibit the organisms
on it. An airlock should be sanitized but the
water in it should probably have an inhibiter
in it.

Don

 
 
 

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by David C Breed » Thu, 21 Feb 2002 01:30:22


Quote:

>> If you put enough sulfite into an active fermentation to stop it, you
>> wouldn't be able to drink it!
>Bottom line, can SO2 be used to sanitize or is
>it just an inhibitor? I've seen lots of postings
>here saying "just sanitize it with potassium
>metabisulphite" or "add SO2 to sanitize it" and
>in the back of my mind there was a previous post
>that was bothering me and it was something to the
>effect that SO2 does not sanitize.
>Let's define the terms - sanitize means kill
>microorganisms and inhibit means stop but not
>kill in which case they can return. I would
>think that you want to sanitize a stirring
>rod for example and not just inhibit the organisms
>on it. An airlock should be sanitized but the
>water in it should probably have an inhibiter
>in it.
>Don

Hi Don, et al.,

SO2 works just fine to sanitize.  And it won't stop a fermentation.
Both of those things are true.

It can be used to sanitize equipment, etc., at least partially because
it's used in such high concentrations.  It's also effective in this
sort of application because it's being directed against things which
have not, on the whole, been selected for their resistance to SO2.
It's not wholly effective against commercial yeast strains because one
of the traits that makes these strains successful enough to be
commercialized is their resistance to SO2.

All that said, there are lots of nice bugs which will wreck wine which
SO2 is generally NOT effective against, like acetobacter (and
Brettanomyces, at least at moderate SO2 levels).

Dave
****************************************************************************

 
 
 

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by Don Shesnick » Thu, 21 Feb 2002 01:55:41


Quote:
> All that said, there are lots of nice bugs which will wreck wine which
> SO2 is generally NOT effective against, like acetobacter (and
> Brettanomyces, at least at moderate SO2 levels).

Then I would say that SO2/Potassium metabisulphite is NOT
an acceptable sanitizer in wine oriented situations.

Don

 
 
 

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by Lum » Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:32:08



Quote:
> Bottom line, can SO2 be used to sanitize or is
> it just an inhibitor? I've seen lots of postings
> here saying "just sanitize it with potassium
> metabisulphite" or "add SO2 to sanitize it" and
> in the back of my mind there was a previous post
> that was bothering me and it was something to the
> effect that SO2 does not sanitize.

> Let's define the terms - sanitize means kill
> microorganisms and inhibit means stop but not
> kill in which case they can return. I would
> think that you want to sanitize a stirring
> rod for example and not just inhibit the organisms
> on it. An airlock should be sanitized but the
> water in it should probably have an inhibiter
> in it.

> Don

Hi Don,

I "sterilized"everything when making wine at home twenty years ago.  Now, at
the winery, I seldom attempt to sterilize anything.  Here is my perspective
on wine "bugs."

Professional winemakers always wash their receivers, crushers, etc. before
grapes are processed.  The pros make sure everything is clean, but they
seldom attempt to "sterilize" their equipment.  On the other hand, the home
winemaking literature is filled with statements such as  "...assemble all
the winemaking equipment and sterilize everything with a sulfite solution."
Have you ever wondered why the pros seem so indifferent about "sterilizing"
their equipment?

 On average, a ton of California wine grapes contains seven pounds of dirt,
one mouse nest, 247 bees, 198 wasps, 1,014 earwigs, 1,833 ants, 10,899 leaf
hoppers and four pounds of bird droppings, more or less.  Besides the above
materials, the waxy coating on grapes contains a variety of microorganisms.
Freshly crushed, grapes contain several non grape substances and many
microorganisms, so attempting to "sterilize" crush equipment seems a bit
futile.

 Grape juice is a hostile environment to most microbes because it has a low
pH, high sugar level and high phenolic content.  *** is present after
fermentation, so wine is a less hospitable environment than juice.  No human
pathogens can multiply in wine.  Even most of the native yeasts on the grape
skins expire as the *** accumulates during fermentation.  In fact, only
a few very special  microorganisms can survive in wine, and because of their
special requirements, most of these microbes cannot survive outside a wine
environment. Unfortunately, vinegar bacteria seem able to survive almost
everywhere, so they are a notable exception.

 The yeasts found in wine are primarily Saccharomyces (sugar loving).
Popular wine yeasts such as Montrachet, Epernay II and Pasteur Red are
Saccharomyces cerevisiae.  The more *** tolerant yeasts such as Prise de
Mousse and Pasteur Champagne are strains of Saccharomyces bayanus.  Only a
few other yeasts such as Schizosaccharomyces, Brettanomyces, Mycoderma and
the Flor yeasts grow in wine.  These yeasts are usually considered wine
spoilage organisms.

 Wine bacteria are mostly limited to two major groups.  Lactic acid
bacteria, belonging to the Lactobacillus, Leuconostoc and Pediococcus
genera, convert malic acid into lactic acid.  Some  lactic bacteria can also
convert sugar directly into acetic acid.  Fortunately for winemakers, lactic
bacteria are sensitive to sulfur dioxide, so they are easy to control.

 The second group of wine bacteria is the vinegar bacteria, (Acetobacter).
These microbes convert ethyl *** into vinegar.  They are a major source
of wine spoilage, and they are not very sensitive to sulfur dioxide.
However, vinegar bacteria require oxygen to convert *** into vinegar.
This is why wine storage containers are always kept full, or the oxygen
content of the gas in the head space must be limited to 0.5% or less.

None of the  molds grow directly in wine.  Although, molds can grow in
dilute wine solutions, so hoses, tanks, etc. must be washed and drained
carefully to avoid mold contamination.

Now, I think "clean" not "sterile."

Regards,
lum

 
 
 

Oak Chips: re-post of Ed Goist's

Post by Edwin Pawlowsk » Thu, 21 Feb 2002 03:06:18


Quote:

>  On average, a ton of California wine grapes contains seven pounds of
dirt,
> one mouse nest, 247 bees, 198 wasps, 1,014 earwigs, 1,833 ants, 10,899
leaf
> hoppers and four pounds of bird droppings, more or less.

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww.  I'm never drinking wine again.  I'm
sticking with clean stuff that comes in bottles.  Like milk. Yeah, bet that
never saw dirt.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome