Did Associated copy Losi?

Did Associated copy Losi?

Post by Frank Ma » Fri, 05 Jan 1996 04:00:00



This message goes out to anyone with an opinion on this subject:

Do you believe that Associated has copied Losi with the new B2 (or, for
that matter, the T2 truck), or do you believe that each company has ended
up with the same results by using different types of research?

Why am I asking this question? Well, I want to know if this is an actual
issue (I've seen alot of postings about this), or has everyone pretty much
died down about it.

And please, be rational in your response! No "Losi sucks" or "Associated
bites." Although by and large, this news group has the best overall level
of maturation and intelligence that I've yet seen, so I don't expect this
to be a concern.

Thanks in advance to those who respond

Frank Masi
Executive Editor, Radio Control Car Action

 
 
 

Did Associated copy Losi?

Post by Matt Whi » Sat, 06 Jan 1996 04:00:00


: flavor. It just looks like Associated has not invaded a little of Losi's
                                            ^^^
Whoops, seriously, I didn't mean to say that. My fingers go faster than my
brain at times.

--
  "If there's a design, there's a designer. If there's a plan, there's a
 planner. And if there's a creation, there's a creator. That's how we know
                         that there is a God."


 
 
 

Did Associated copy Losi?

Post by awellma » Sat, 06 Jan 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
> This message goes out to anyone with an opinion on this subject:

> Do you believe that Associated has copied Losi with the new B2 (or, for
> that matter, the T2 truck), or do you believe that each company has ended
> up with the same results by using different types of research?

> Why am I asking this question? Well, I want to know if this is an actual
> issue (I've seen alot of postings about this), or has everyone pretty much
> died down about it.

> And please, be rational in your response! No "Losi sucks" or "Associated
> bites." Although by and large, this news group has the best overall level
> of maturation and intelligence that I've yet seen, so I don't expect this
> to be a concern.

> Thanks in advance to those who respond

> Frank Masi
> Executive Editor, Radio Control Car Action


   I think that over the years there has been lot's idea
   stealing going on.  Like during the early '80's all the
   cars had the ladder frames then comes Associated with
   the "tub".  Then comes AYK with some tub design that
   are sort of similar.  Then a few years later we see the
   first Losi with a flat chassis.  I believe that all the
   companys "use" not steal ideas.  They often use things
   like the general design for the Stealth for the Losi
   ***s and even for the Traxxas car and trucks.  Of
   course there is the Traxxas Bandit using the XX look-a-like
   chassis and bushing in the front hubs with bolt on wheels
   like the XX.  I believe that all the car makers borrow
   ideas making their little changes to them to improve
   them, in the end we end up with much better products. :)

   Once an excellent design such as the "Stealth" has been
   made, the other companies have to also produce ***s
   comparable to the "Stealth".  And if you can't make a
   totaly new design most companys copy the design and make
   little changes such as thrust washer that fit better. In
   the end they aren't copying ideas just borrowing an idea
   and hopefuly improving it.

   Well that's my 2 cents,

   Adam

   XX & GTX racer

 
 
 

Did Associated copy Losi?

Post by Matt Whi » Sat, 06 Jan 1996 04:00:00


 There's been a lot of design and idea "sharing" between Losi and
Associated over the years, but one thing I don't think very many people
know is that Traxxas was the first to alter their truck's *** ratio
to compensate for the larger wheels. Losi copied this with the LXT, and
finally Associated did with the T2 I believe.

 On the B2 issue, though, I do believe Associated stole a little more than
they where entitled to. Ever noticed how much the same the steering
bellcrank system is to the Losi? Nothing on the B2 shouts traditional
Associated, and, at first glance seems to shout nothing but "Losi!".
 Associated products usually have very beefy parts, especially arms and
hub carriers. Now they're almost identical to the XX.

 With their new car, Associated started with a clean sheet (or the Losi XX
blue prints!) of paper and a bunch of to-be molded plastic.

 BTW, Frank, have you gotten my email re. diff adjustment? What do ya think?
--
  "If there's a design, there's a designer. If there's a plan, there's a
 planner. And if there's a creation, there's a creator. That's how we know
                         that there is a God."

 
 
 

Did Associated copy Losi?

Post by Matt Whi » Sat, 06 Jan 1996 04:00:00


[stuff munched]

: So, and this is my point, aside from cosmetic changes, there's really
: nothing different about any brand except fine-tuning stuff.

: Does that sound strange?  Think about it, the shocks are the same, the
: bulkheads are the same, the chassis are the same, the front and rear
: ends are the same, the gearboxes are the same, it's all the same stuff
: until you start to alter link positions, which is where the engineering
: comes in.

 If everything is so "same", what defines a Losi and vise-versa? What
makes the B2 or the XX what it is? Typically, each brand has their own
flavor. It just looks like Associated has not invaded a little of Losi's
tasty formula. But is it better? I don't know. I've never driven a B2. But
certainly the XX is still very competitive, like in the recent Savahnna
(sp?) race.

: So, to answer the original question, no I don't think Associated stole
: anything from Losi.  If they did, the B2 would handle exactly the same
: as the XX, and I feel that the B2 handles better.  At the local track,
: the B2 dominated stock car last Wednesday.

 I think Associated did rip some stuff from Losi, but it was somewhat
justified. If someone is successful, it is common for other bodies to use
the same tactics.

--
  "If there's a design, there's a designer. If there's a plan, there's a
 planner. And if there's a creation, there's a creator. That's how we know
                         that there is a God."

 
 
 

Did Associated copy Losi?

Post by Jim Knepl » Sat, 06 Jan 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
> This message goes out to anyone with an opinion on this subject:
> Do you believe that Associated has copied Losi with the new B2 (or, for
> that matter, the T2 truck), or do you believe that each company has ended
> up with the same results by using different types of research?

There are certain aspects of RC cars that aren't going to change from
brand to brand, such as the steering bellcranks, servo saver, etc.

The type of chassis (tub, dual-deck, et al) doesn't make much of a
difference, IMHO, as long as some industry-wide ideas are followed
like thirty degree kick-up on the front and zero flex.

Everyone uses basically the same front hub carrier design except
Schumacher, who "stole" that idea of Active Caster from full-size
racers.

Modern gearboxes are the same except for their final ratio.  Everyone
has a top gear, an idler gear, and a differential gear, and that's
about it.

So, and this is my point, aside from cosmetic changes, there's really
nothing different about any brand except fine-tuning stuff.

Does that sound strange?  Think about it, the shocks are the same, the
bulkheads are the same, the chassis are the same, the front and rear
ends are the same, the gearboxes are the same, it's all the same stuff
until you start to alter link positions, which is where the engineering
comes in.

So, to answer the original question, no I don't think Associated stole
anything from Losi.  If they did, the B2 would handle exactly the same
as the XX, and I feel that the B2 handles better.  At the local track,
the B2 dominated stock car last Wednesday.

Jim
--
Jim Knepley      |               Referral Based Distribution
  Magican        |   For more information regarding opportunities in your
  Computer Geek  |   area, including national and internation expansion,
                 |   please call 1-800-787-3536.  Refer to PIN #630.

 
 
 

Did Associated copy Losi?

Post by LCAR » Sat, 06 Jan 1996 04:00:00


HOW ABOUT THIS.   XXT AND XX HAVE THE SAME ROLLOUT
 
 
 

Did Associated copy Losi?

Post by Matt Whi » Sun, 07 Jan 1996 04:00:00


: HOW ABOUT THIS.   XXT AND XX HAVE THE SAME ROLLOUT

 What's this?

 Is it just me, or is this person not understood?

--
  "If there's a design, there's a designer. If there's a plan, there's a
 planner. And if there's a creation, there's a creator. That's how we know
                         that there is a God."

 
 
 

Did Associated copy Losi?

Post by Bill McCal » Sun, 07 Jan 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
> This message goes out to anyone with an opinion on this subject:
> Do you believe that Associated has copied Losi with the new B2
>(or, for that matter, the T2 truck), or do you believe that each
>company has ended up with the same results by using different
>types of research?

I've been fortunate enough to attend one or two nationals every
year since 1988 and in my capacity of writing for C+ I get to talk
to both groups at least a couple of times a year.  There is no
question that they frequently see what each other is doing and at
times there has been some swapping of personnel, but while each
group is influcenced by the other, they remain independant at
heart and are quite willing to be innovative and take the risk of
doing something different.  The thing that strikes me about the B2
and the XX series is that ignoring the hype on the box about
performance gains of the new design, most of the changes come
about for ease of manufacturing.  While we have gained in
performance I find it amazing that a top notch kit today costs
about the same as kits of less or equal competitiveness than when
I first started racing in 86.

--
Heute das Internet, morgen die Welt!

 
 
 

Did Associated copy Losi?

Post by Robbie Langle » Sun, 07 Jan 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>  There's been a lot of design and idea "sharing" between Losi and
> Associated over the years, but one thing I don't think very many people
> know is that Traxxas was the first to alter their truck's *** ratio
> to compensate for the larger wheels. Losi copied this with the LXT, and
> finally Associated did with the T2 I believe.

>  On the B2 issue, though, I do believe Associated stole a little more than
> they where entitled to. Ever noticed how much the same the steering
> bellcrank system is to the Losi? Nothing on the B2 shouts traditional
> Associated, and, at first glance seems to shout nothing but "Losi!".
>  Associated products usually have very beefy parts, especially arms and
> hub carriers. Now they're almost identical to the XX.

>  With their new car, Associated started with a clean sheet (or the Losi XX
> blue prints!) of paper and a bunch of to-be molded plastic.

>  BTW, Frank, have you gotten my email re. diff adjustment? What do ya think?
> --
>   "If there's a design, there's a designer. If there's a plan, there's a
>  planner. And if there's a creation, there's a creator. That's how we know
>                          that there is a God."


If you recall, Associated raced the original "Stealth" Car that I
believe Masami won the 1/10 IFMAR OFF-ROAD WORLDS with at Detroit
a few years back (someone correct me if I am mistaken).  It originally
had narrow front rear bulkheads and long A arms and long shocks.....in
my opinion Associated is just following through with their original
design.....back when the Stealth car was first built and they were
testing it....they felt back then that the regular Team Car was a better
overall performing car than the Stealth was.....now that the Losi XX has
been mopping up everywhere, probably Associated decided to go ahead and
incorporate their original innovations (in my opinion) into their newest
car (the B2).....  
   I have drove the B2 on a limited basis, and based on my preliminary
experience, this new car is a lot more agile than the regular RC-10 Cars
(I currently own an RC-10 Worlds car....I have been R/C racing for over
10 years).  I probably will wait until Associated solves their problem
with the rear A arm mounts before I purchase the new car though....

Robbie Langley
Fort Smith, AR
Home of WARCAR
Western Arkansas Radio Control Auto Racers

 
 
 

Did Associated copy Losi?

Post by Jim Knepl » Mon, 08 Jan 1996 04:00:00


Quote:


>: So, and this is my point, aside from cosmetic changes, there's really
>: nothing different about any brand except fine-tuning stuff.
>: Does that sound strange?  Think about it, the shocks are the same, the
>: bulkheads are the same, the chassis are the same, the front and rear
>: ends are the same, the gearboxes are the same, it's all the same stuff
>: until you start to alter link positions, which is where the engineering
>: comes in.
> If everything is so "same", what defines a Losi and vise-versa? What
>makes the B2 or the XX what it is?

Geometry and cosmetics (no, not like lipstick *grin*).  The way that the
chassis rolls weight to the front wheels in a turn, for instance.  Those
bits of geometry make all the difference...

Quote:
>: So, to answer the original question, no I don't think Associated stole
>: anything from Losi.  If they did, the B2 would handle exactly the same
>: as the XX, and I feel that the B2 handles better.  At the local track,
>: the B2 dominated stock car last Wednesday.
> I think Associated did rip some stuff from Losi, but it was somewhat
>justified. If someone is successful, it is common for other bodies to use
>the same tactics.

Somewhat.  I don't think that Associated feels that they're playing
catch-up.  They release products when they can, and those products are
frequently very good.

Jim
--
Jim Knepley      |               Referral Based Distribution
  Magican        |   For more information regarding opportunities in your
  Computer Geek  |   area, including national and internation expansion,
                 |   please call 1-800-787-3536.  Refer to PIN #630.

 
 
 

Did Associated copy Losi?

Post by Brion So » Mon, 08 Jan 1996 04:00:00




 Here are my suggestions.

Quote:
> This is what I'm looking at:

> RC10B2
> Trinity Midnight  -- good stock motor?

Yes, Very I have 2 and they are very Quick, probably the fastest stock
motor around.

Quote:
> good AM 2ch radio -- do I want to go with the Airtronics XL2P or something
>                      else...I'm leaning toward Airtronics from what I have
>                      heard.  What others radios are in this class?

I have an XL2P that is 8 years old with no problems, It is probably the
best choice for the money.

Quote:
> Novak DUSTER or
>       RACER ESC   -- I want one that I won't have to upgrade soon.  Is the
>                      current limiter worth the extra $20.  What kind of a
>                      modified motor will this handle?  Do I want Novak or
>                      Tekin?

The Racer is actually a better speed control all around 50 amps better
forward current and 70 better braking, This would allow you to run a
hotter modified motor, It is the same as the Hammer Pro without the
HyperFets. As for the Tekin, Novack thing all I can say Is I have had no
problems with my Novaks.

Quote:
> good Peak charger -- I've really got no idea on this one.  What good is an
>                      AC/DC charger vs. an AC only?  

You probably won't find an AC only, But DC's run off of a 12 volt DC power
supply only (whether it's a car battery or a separate regulator), AC/DC
will run of of house current as well, I suggest an AC/DC, you can get a
good Peak Charger AC/DC for around $60.00

Quote:
> 3 sets of Sanyo
>       1700 SCRC   -- there are too many different packagers of batteries out
>                      there to tell what the hell is going on.  I don't think
>                      that I will be needing matched cells yet and I want to
>                      get my packs for about $20 a piece.  Where's a good
>                      place to get them?

You Probbably won't be able to find 1700SCRC for $20.00 ea, more like
$30.00 - $35.00, All of the cells companies recieve are basically the same
and if you are just looking for packs unmatched just look for the cheapest
price, The Black Label Sanyos are the 1700, If you get Red they are 1400.
 
 
 

Did Associated copy Losi?

Post by Rob O'Keef » Tue, 09 Jan 1996 04:00:00



Quote:


>>  There's been a lot of design and idea "sharing" between Losi and
Robbie Langley writes:
>10 years).  I probably will wait until Associated solves their problem
>with the rear A arm mounts before I purchase the new car though....

I'm looking into buying the B2...what's wrong with the rear A arm mounts?
Are there any other problems that people have had with the B2?  This is my
first buggy and I want to get something that won't leave me tearing my hair
out in frustration.

While I'm at it.  I'm not real sure on a few of the things I'm going to need.
I'm trying to keep the price down as much as I can but still get a setup
that I can race with and I won't have to upgrade too much.

This is what I'm looking at:

RC10B2
Trinity Midnight  -- good stock motor?
good AM 2ch radio -- do I want to go with the Airtronics XL2P or something
                     else...I'm leaning toward Airtronics from what I have
                     heard.  What others radios are in this class?
Novak DUSTER or
      RACER ESC   -- I want one that I won't have to upgrade soon.  Is the
                     current limiter worth the extra $20.  What kind of a
                     modified motor will this handle?  Do I want Novak or
                     Tekin?
good Peak charger -- I've really got no idea on this one.  What good is an
                     AC/DC charger vs. an AC only?  
3 sets of Sanyo
      1700 SCRC   -- there are too many different packagers of batteries out
                     there to tell what the hell is going on.  I don't think
                     that I will be needing matched cells yet and I want to
                     get my packs for about $20 a piece.  Where's a good
                     place to get them?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

                                                Rob O'Keeffe