Vernier engines

Vernier engines

Post by George Caswel » Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:42:37



   A couple questions regarding the wonderful ubiquitous thruster part, the
vernier nozzle.

   1: I read a definition somewhere which said that verniers are the engines
which adjust trajectory, and other engines are responsible for primary thrust.
Is this actually the case?  Or has "vernier" fallen into common use among
space-types as referring to a whole class of engines which may include those
producing primary thrust?

   2: Any good references on how various types of (current-day) vernier
nozzles are supposed to look?  Apart from driving to Florida and seeing some
myself, that is.

   3: Why are some such nozzles red or yellow on the inside?  Does this
represent how the item looks straight off the production line, or would a
nozzle still look that way after use?

---GEC
Projects page: http://tetsujin.sourceforge.net/
(M-x depeche-mode)
"Porque ma?ana a lo mejor hay un entierro"

 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by Dominique Duroch » Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:19:39


In article

Quote:

>    A couple questions regarding the wonderful ubiquitous thruster part, the
> vernier nozzle.

>    1: I read a definition somewhere which said that verniers are the engines
> which adjust trajectory, and other engines are responsible for primary thrust.
> Is this actually the case?  Or has "vernier" fallen into common use among
> space-types as referring to a whole class of engines which may include those
> producing primary thrust?

Verniers don't so much control trajectory as craft orientation. There use
in anime does seem somewhat larger than the real things.

Quote:
>    2: Any good references on how various types of (current-day) vernier
> nozzles are supposed to look?  Apart from driving to Florida and seeing some
> myself, that is.

They are basically cones, sometimes outside the surface, sometimes
embedded in the surface. This is simply due to the physics of gas
expansion in a nozzle, which makes circular cross-sections more efficient.

Quote:
>    3: Why are some such nozzles red or yellow on the inside?  Does this
> represent how the item looks straight off the production line, or would a
> nozzle still look that way after use?

This is mostly a style thing. While they may be painted when new for
various reasons, they would likely get some grime with use. This is mostly
true when the gases going through the nozzles are combustion products.

Dom

--

    Lair of the Draken |  http://www3.sympatico.ca/draken35/index.html
               MonSFFA |  http://www3.sympatico.ca/draken35/MonSFFA/
  Mechanical engineers build weapons. Civil engineers build targets.

 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by Mark Wilso » Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:30:14


On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 21:42:37 -0400, George Caswell

Quote:

>   A couple questions regarding the wonderful ubiquitous thruster part, the
>vernier nozzle.

>   1: I read a definition somewhere which said that verniers are the engines
>which adjust trajectory, and other engines are responsible for primary thrust.
>Is this actually the case?  Or has "vernier" fallen into common use among
>space-types as referring to a whole class of engines which may include those
>producing primary thrust?

Orientation engines.  Of course, in space, these can also provide
forward motion.

Quote:
>   2: Any good references on how various types of (current-day) vernier
>nozzles are supposed to look?  Apart from driving to Florida and seeing some
>myself, that is.

Standard looking rocket nozzles.  You could check NASA's satellite
image library online.

Quote:
>   3: Why are some such nozzles red or yellow on the inside?  Does this
>represent how the item looks straight off the production line, or would a
>nozzle still look that way after use?

Anime--nothing to do with reality.  You can write it off as some sort
of advanced ceramic coating.  Real nozzles are either metallic or
metals coated with a white ceramic liner (most small thruster type
engines use really *** chemicals that are fairly corrosive).

For modeling purposes, I'd go with what it looks like on the Toob and
forget reality.  If they have some magic red an yellow thruster nozzle
material, perhaps they have some magic fuel that doesn't smudge or
discolor the thruster?  Also, in a military application, a "smoky"
engine is "BAD".  A clean engine is "GOOD".

Quote:
>---GEC
>Projects page: http://www.FoundCollection.com/
>(M-x depeche-mode)
>"Porque ma?ana a lo mejor hay un entierro"

Mark Wilson

One time, at Band Camp........

http://www.FoundCollection.com/~mmwilson2/Models.htm

RAAM FAQ:
http://www.FoundCollection.com/~mmwilson2/RAAMFAQ/index.html

 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by James C. Neverman » Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:27:49


Quote:

>    3: Why are some nozzles red or yellow on the inside?  Does this
> represent how the item looks straight off the production line, or would a
> nozzle still look that way after use?

If real engine nozzles --jet or rocket-- were painted internally or
externally, it would have to be for protection from manufacturing
chemicals or possibly weather prior to use. But at first firing, any
paint/coating would burn off almost instantly.

For my tastes, sci-fi engine exhausts and the structures immediately
surrounding them [excluding really *** engines like "warp drive"
for instance: who knows what physical properties they have?] should be
painted as realistically as possible, because in most instances one
presumes tremendous heat from very high pressure, high velocity gases
as part of the propulsion/exhaust process.

So red/yellow/orange paint in/around model engines just looks fake and
toy-like.  

--
Jim Nevermann
[usual disclaimers]

 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by George Caswel » Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:18:22


Quote:

> If real engine nozzles --jet or rocket-- were painted internally or
> externally, it would have to be for protection from manufacturing
> chemicals or possibly weather prior to use. But at first firing, any
> paint/coating would burn off almost instantly.
...
> So red/yellow/orange paint in/around model engines just looks fake and
> toy-like.  

   That was always my impression...  like "Great, this Zaku's straight off the
showroom floor.  Wouldn't want one of those 'seen some action' Zakus..."  So
then WTF exactly is up with red interior on rocket nozzles on Gundam kits?  Is
it some kind of protective coating?  Did they take a look at a reference photo
of a rocket packed up for a long stay in some Arizona desert when they decided
to color it?

---GEC
Projects page: http://tetsujin.sourceforge.net/
(M-x depeche-mode)
"Porque ma?ana a lo mejor hay un entierro"

 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by David » Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:15:16


Quote:
>Did they take a look at a reference photo
>of a rocket packed up for a long stay in some Arizona desert when they decided
>to color it?

Well, I looked through my NASA anniversary photo book, and the basic answer to
your question is yes.  Half the photos are of Saturns, Mercurys, and Space
Shuttles with coverings, and unless they are really close to launch, their
engines have red covers.(Didn't see any yellow ones)  None of them have an
internal red ring of color like a gundam, but the overall effect is similar.  I
did notice that many "artist's intepretation" paintings feature deep red
interiors for rocket/shuttle engines, so maybe they know something we don't.  

David H.
(please remove "nospam" to reply via e-mail)

 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by Dominique Duroch » Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:35:34



Quote:

>I
> did notice that many "artist's intepretation" paintings feature deep red
> interiors for rocket/shuttle engines, so maybe they know something we don't.  

that's more of a "flame lighting up the inside wall" effect they add.
Although you may have something about that being the origin of the bell
interior colors.

Dom

--

    Lair of the Draken |  http://www3.sympatico.ca/draken35/index.html
               MonSFFA |  http://www3.sympatico.ca/draken35/MonSFFA/
  Mechanical engineers build weapons. Civil engineers build targets.

 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by David » Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:31:38


Quote:
>that's more of a "flame lighting up the inside wall" effect they add.

Well, the best example was of a shuttle in orbit, with the engines shut
down....

Quote:
>Although you may have something about that being the origin of the bell
>interior colors.

I thought that too.  :)  From many angles, it looks like most rockets have dark
grey engines with red rims.  

David H.
(please remove "nospam" to reply via e-mail)

 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by Futari- » Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:03:59


Quote:

>    3: Why are some such nozzles red or yellow on the inside?  Does this
> represent how the item looks straight off the production line, or would a
> nozzle still look that way after use?

I always thought that it was a "dramatic interpretation" of the nozzle being
fired; you know, glowing yellow/red from being in actual use.

Jeff

 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by James C. Neverman » Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:23:11


Quote:

> I thought that too.  :)  From many angles, it looks like most rockets have dark
> grey engines with red rims.

Likewise, go to any airshow with `working' jets that you can walk up
to, and take a look at their engine exteriors and up their
"tailpipes": nothing but unpainted, annealed metals.

--
Jim Nevermann
[usual disclaimers]

 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by George Caswel » Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:38:04


Quote:

> >    3: Why are some such nozzles red or yellow on the inside?  Does this
> > represent how the item looks straight off the production line, or would a
> > nozzle still look that way after use?

> I always thought that it was a "dramatic interpretation" of the nozzle being
> fired; you know, glowing yellow/red from being in actual use.

   As in "look, this surface is currently superheated"?

   I guess that's one way of looking at it...

   In light of all this I'm thinking I'll just go on painting them to look
like they're inactive, possibly a little worn -- back when I did a lot of Star
Wars models I tried painting engines the color of the light they gave off when
active... I don't think it worked too well.

---GEC
Projects page: http://tetsujin.sourceforge.net/
(M-x depeche-mode)
"Porque ma?ana a lo mejor hay un entierro"

 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by Mark Wilso » Thu, 14 Jun 2001 04:01:58


If you are talking verniers like on Sazabi or Kampher, they are bright
yellow when off either way.

On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:38:04 -0400, George Caswell

Quote:


>> >    3: Why are some such nozzles red or yellow on the inside?  Does this
>> > represent how the item looks straight off the production line, or would a
>> > nozzle still look that way after use?

>> I always thought that it was a "dramatic interpretation" of the nozzle being
>> fired; you know, glowing yellow/red from being in actual use.

>   As in "look, this surface is currently superheated"?

>   I guess that's one way of looking at it...

>   In light of all this I'm thinking I'll just go on painting them to look
>like they're inactive, possibly a little worn -- back when I did a lot of Star
>Wars models I tried painting engines the color of the light they gave off when
>active... I don't think it worked too well.

>---GEC
>Projects page: http://tetsujin.sourceforge.net/
>(M-x depeche-mode)
>"Porque ma?ana a lo mejor hay un entierro"

Mark Wilson

One time, at Band Camp........

http://home.earthlink.net/~mmwilson2/Models.htm

RAAM FAQ:
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmwilson2/RAAMFAQ/index.html

 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by Mark Wilso » Thu, 14 Jun 2001 04:04:43



Quote:
>>Did they take a look at a reference photo
>>of a rocket packed up for a long stay in some Arizona desert when they decided
>>to color it?

>Well, I looked through my NASA anniversary photo book, and the basic answer to
>your question is yes.  Half the photos are of Saturns, Mercurys, and Space
>Shuttles with coverings, and unless they are really close to launch, their
>engines have red covers.(Didn't see any yellow ones)  None of them have an
>internal red ring of color like a gundam, but the overall effect is similar.  I
>did notice that many "artist's intepretation" paintings feature deep red
>interiors for rocket/shuttle engines, so maybe they know something we don't.  

>David H.
>(please remove "nospam" to reply via e-mail)

Oh, geez, those dang "Remove before Flight" covers to keep birds and
critters out?  It can't be that obvious!
Mark Wilson

One time, at Band Camp........

http://home.earthlink.net/~mmwilson2/Models.htm

RAAM FAQ:
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmwilson2/RAAMFAQ/index.html

 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by George Caswel » Thu, 14 Jun 2001 05:47:47


Quote:

> If you are talking verniers like on Sazabi or Kampher, they are bright
> yellow when off either way.

   OK...  but why??!?  :)

Quote:
> On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:38:04 -0400, George Caswell


> >> >    3: Why are some such nozzles red or yellow on the inside?  Does this
> >> > represent how the item looks straight off the production line, or would a
> >> > nozzle still look that way after use?

> >> I always thought that it was a "dramatic interpretation" of the nozzle being
> >> fired; you know, glowing yellow/red from being in actual use.

> >   As in "look, this surface is currently superheated"?

> >   I guess that's one way of looking at it...

> >   In light of all this I'm thinking I'll just go on painting them to look
> >like they're inactive, possibly a little worn -- back when I did a lot of Star
> >Wars models I tried painting engines the color of the light they gave off when
> >active... I don't think it worked too well.

> >---GEC
> >Projects page: http://tetsujin.sourceforge.net/
> >(M-x depeche-mode)
> >"Porque ma?ana a lo mejor hay un entierro"

> Mark Wilson

> One time, at Band Camp........

> http://home.earthlink.net/~mmwilson2/Models.htm

> RAAM FAQ:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mmwilson2/RAAMFAQ/index.html

---GEC
Projects page: http://tetsujin.sourceforge.net/
(M-x depeche-mode)
"Porque ma?ana a lo mejor hay un entierro"
 
 
 

Vernier engines

Post by David Chi » Thu, 14 Jun 2001 05:48:59


Would that be an attempt to reproduce the texture of oxidized iron?


Quote:
> did notice that many "artist's intepretation" paintings feature deep red
> interiors for rocket/shuttle engines, so maybe they know something we

don't.