Canada Specialists?

Canada Specialists?

Post by Rodne » Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:22:08



I have come across a 1983 SG869ca qe2 grey printed twice.

http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=376

Any readers have any background on how this occured

Est Value?

Thanks very much.


(Remove gum to reply)

 
 
 

Canada Specialists?

Post by Rodne » Sat, 26 Jun 2004 01:16:50


That's what I thought originally TL,
however that (colour shift) being true,
there would have been evidence of the mis-register
at the bottom of the neck.

Being mint, Gibbons has this not existing (but evidenced used)
so in my mind I am happy to default to the lesser status.
Yet, what adds to my interest is the colour. It is extremely dark
which would suggest a double print of grey.

I have nothing to compare it to yet, all my Canada are stored
away in glassine. Optimism remains.

Regards

| It looks like what your seeing is an off-register printing. The 'double'
| is the gray vignette around the head showing through the slightly higher
| blue mask. Printing error, I would say.
| TL
|
|

 
 
 

Canada Specialists?

Post by Rein Bakhuizen van den Bri » Sat, 26 Jun 2004 04:04:56


dear Rodney,

sometimes 'double colours' come from ink-shifts - which is
awfully common in the case of photogravure [to a much lesser
extent also of offset-litho or recess], but in the case of
offset-litho it may be a shaky surface of the *** offset
cylinder that hits the paper twice..

groetjes, Rein  


Quote:
>That's what I thought originally TL,
>however that (colour shift) being true,
>there would have been evidence of the mis-register
>at the bottom of the neck.

 
 
 

Canada Specialists?

Post by Rodne » Sun, 27 Jun 2004 22:49:55


G'day Rein,
I can accept the *** offset kissing twice,
and that would I assume be a double print of grey,
(Gibbons does not explain to any depth how it occurred)

It is definitely not a colour shift or registration error
(at least not in the first print) as I would see it,
because evidence of the misregistration shows linearly
across or down the stamp, as adeqately shown here
on the famous "sink of dishes"
http://www.FoundCollection.com/

I've emailed several Canadian Specialists for their
opinion, if I get any response, I'll post.

Rgds

| dear Rodney,
|
| sometimes 'double colours' come from ink-shifts - which is
| awfully common in the case of photogravure [to a much lesser
| extent also of offset-litho or recess], but in the case of
| offset-litho it may be a shaky surface of the *** offset
| cylinder that hits the paper twice..
|
| groetjes, Rein
|

| >That's what I thought originally TL,
| >however that (colour shift) being true,
| >there would have been evidence of the mis-register
| >at the bottom of the neck.
| >

 
 
 

Canada Specialists?

Post by Bob Watso » Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:19:02


Quote:

> I have come across a 1983 SG869ca qe2 grey printed twice.

> http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=376

> Any readers have any background on how this occured

> Est Value?

Some of the Canadian definitives issued around this time (late '70s and
early '80s) really did seem to suffer from quality control problems. I
don't know the cause of the double image but it is certainly not
uncommon. I was recently going through a mixed load of Canadian stuff
from that time and it was hard to find a good clear crisp image on any
of this series (based on a bas-relief portrait of QEII by Jaroslav Huta).

See also http://www3.sympatico.ca/bobwatson10/misc/QEII.jpg for my notes
from an album page done some time ago (and in dire need of updating).

I believe this matter was raised in this newsgroup some time back
because I remember someone saying that they had left one of the
low-value flower definitives of this era in the sun for a day and
noticed that the colour was completely different - not faded, but
different! Unfortunately, I can't remember more than that.

Interestingly, the commemoratives from that time were generally rather
well done.

All the best,
Bob Watson

 
 
 

Canada Specialists?

Post by Rodne » Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:44:10


Thanks Bob,
(and is it congrats on winning the RCSD prongs?)
I voted but never was advised on the winner.

| > I have come across a 1983 SG869ca qe2 grey printed twice.
| >
| > http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=376
| >
| > Any readers have any background on how this occured
| >
| > Est Value?
| >
|
| Some of the Canadian definitives issued around this time (late '70s and
| early '80s) really did seem to suffer from quality control problems. I
| don't know the cause of the double image but it is certainly not
| uncommon. I was recently going through a mixed load of Canadian stuff
| from that time and it was hard to find a good clear crisp image on any
| of this series (based on a bas-relief portrait of QEII by Jaroslav Huta).
|
| See also http://www3.sympatico.ca/bobwatson10/misc/QEII.jpg for my notes
| from an album page done some time ago (and in dire need of updating).
|
| I believe this matter was raised in this newsgroup some time back
| because I remember someone saying that they had left one of the
| low-value flower definitives of this era in the sun for a day and
| noticed that the colour was completely different - not faded, but
| different! Unfortunately, I can't remember more than that.
|
| Interestingly, the commemoratives from that time were generally rather
| well done.
|
| All the best,
| Bob Watson

 
 
 

Canada Specialists?

Post by Rodne » Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:13:45


Tom,
Since Bob Watson's post, I've become more suspicious,
There is a bourse here on 18th July, and I'll take the little blighter
around for a comparison re colour and shade.

That was a nice piece of detective work there, old son :)
probably will be nicer when I get my hands on a new scanner.

Tell me that's not your <own> Sydney Views!
(ooooow  greed is not good)
Old Charles Kay on his primitive hand press must have
pressed twice.
I have a couple of pages of history on this issue floating around
but, as I never expect to ever be the owner of this one
I've left it gathering dust somewhere.
(Nice, very nice.)

--

(Remove gum to reply)

| Rodney,
|  There is evidence of overlap on the undersides (bottom of the neck). It is
| very dark there and forms a hard edge where the mask cuts into the head
| (neck, chin, etc.). I've done an examination and all I see is a mask shifted
| to the up-left of a 'gray head and gray vignette fading out around the head'.
| The head and vignette are one layer. The blue mask is the other which is
| supposed to overlap the gray 'halo' and combine with it. Where the mask does
| not cover the gray vignette there is gray. Where the mask cuts into the head
| it is darker. Hope this helps.
|
| http://loepp.home.mindspring.com/a/queen6.jpg
|
| Not to be compared but only as it is on the same subject here is a certified
| double for your viewing pleasure:
|
| http://loepp.home.mindspring.com/a/waust.jpg
|
|  Regards,
| TL
|
|
| > That's what I thought originally TL,
| > however that (colour shift) being true,
| > there would have been evidence of the mis-register
| > at the bottom of the neck.
| >
| > Being mint, Gibbons has this not existing (but evidenced used)
| > so in my mind I am happy to default to the lesser status.
| > Yet, what adds to my interest is the colour. It is extremely dark
| > which would suggest a double print of grey.
| >
| > I have nothing to compare it to yet, all my Canada are stored
| > away in glassine. Optimism remains.
| >
| > Regards
| >
| > | It looks like what your seeing is an off-register printing. The 'double'
| > | is the gray vignette around the head showing through the slightly higher
| > | blue mask. Printing error, I would say.
| > | TL
| > |
| > |
|

 
 
 

Canada Specialists?

Post by Rodne » Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:14:59


G'day Tom,

I have never seen double imprints mentioned before with the Sydney Views.
If I come across the article I mentioned I'll post it, (don't hold your breath :)

Here is something to start with, reproduced with kind permission from the
"Australasian Stamp Catalogue" the articles are copyrighted.

http://www.FoundCollection.com/
http://www.FoundCollection.com/

I couldn't answer your display question, too variable, but I follow similar lines myself.
I have seen the results of too many lovely written up albums get butchered at Auction
when collections are picked over to follow suit.
I store all my collections in glassine, after scanning, apart from my Oz collection
or, as you say, specialty ***s which I display under Hagners
(The Sydney Views deserves a page of it's own :)

My simple Oz collection has blown out to 6 albums, and apart from when I was a kid,
I haven't hinged a stamp ever!.

 
 
 

Canada Specialists?

Post by Bob Watso » Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:11:25


Quote:

> Rodney,
>  There is evidence of overlap on the undersides (bottom of the neck). It is
> very dark there and forms a hard edge where the mask cuts into the head
> (neck, chin, etc.). I've done an examination and all I see is a mask shifted
> to the up-left of a 'gray head and gray vignette fading out around the head'.
> The head and vignette are one layer. The blue mask is the other which is
> supposed to overlap the gray 'halo' and combine with it. Where the mask does
> not cover the gray vignette there is gray. Where the mask cuts into the head
> it is darker. Hope this helps.

> http://loepp.home.mindspring.com/a/queen6.jpg

Nice work! Will see if I can repeat on examples I have.

Quote:
> Not to be compared but only as it is on the same subject here is a certified
> double for your viewing pleasure:

> http://loepp.home.mindspring.com/a/waust.jpg

Never seen one of these in detail before.
 From the catalogue illustrations I always felt they were
extraordinarily crude and were only produced so that PO officials could
hoard them for selling to 2004 collectors.
Your picture shows a charming vignette that looks as though it came from
a medieval woodcut.

Anyone know the story behind it? Who drew it? Who the depicted
characters are?

All the best,
Bob Watson

 
 
 

Canada Specialists?

Post by Rodne » Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:17:05


These would be the hilight of any Aussie collection IMHO Bob,
I posted an explanation of the drawing just last week, but perhaps you missed it.
I'll email it to you.

I have a two page story on the issue, but darned if I can find it at the moment.

| Never seen one of these in detail before.
|  From the catalogue illustrations I always felt they were
| extraordinarily crude and were only produced so that PO officials could
| hoard them for selling to 2004 collectors.
| Your picture shows a charming vignette that looks as though it came from
| a medieval woodcut.
|
| Anyone know the story behind it? Who drew it? Who the depicted
| characters are?
|
| All the best,
| Bob Watson

 
 
 

Canada Specialists?

Post by Rodne » Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:31:38


From a really great read (on the web)
Gives graphic details of life on the convict ships,
If you have any interest in Oz, it's a "must read"

I spent 2 days trying to locate an image of the "Great Seal of NSW"
to no avail.
(...and I had to consult the dictionary for what a "distaff" was)

Robert Hughes.  The Fatal Shore.  New York: Knopf, 1987.

While this was going on at Sydney Cove in 1790, the Lords of the Committee of
Council were busy submitting the proposed Great Seal of New South Wales to their
King.  Its obverse depicted "Convicts landed at Botany-Bay; their fetters taken off and
received by Industry sitting on a Bale of Goods with her attributes, the distaff,
bee-hive, pickaxe and spade, pointing to oxen ploughing, the rising habitations, and a
church on a hill at the distance, with a fort for their defence," and the Virgilian motto
Sic fortis Etruria crevit, "Thus Etruria grew strong."

| Never seen one of these in detail before.
|  From the catalogue illustrations I always felt they were
| extraordinarily crude and were only produced so that PO officials could
| hoard them for selling to 2004 collectors.
| Your picture shows a charming vignette that looks as though it came from
| a medieval woodcut.
|
| Anyone know the story behind it? Who drew it? Who the depicted
| characters are?
|
| All the best,
| Bob Watson

 
 
 

Canada Specialists?

Post by Bob Watso » Tue, 06 Jul 2004 06:09:31


Quote:

> From a really great read (on the web)
> Gives graphic details of life on the convict ships,
> If you have any interest in Oz, it's a "must read"

I'll get hold of that.

Quote:
> I spent 2 days trying to locate an image of the "Great Seal of NSW"
> to no avail.

It certainly would be interesting to see the original

Quote:
> (...and I had to consult the dictionary for what a "distaff" was)

me too!

Quote:
> Robert Hughes.  The Fatal Shore.  New York: Knopf, 1987.

> While this was going on at Sydney Cove in 1790, the Lords of the Committee of
> Council were busy submitting the proposed Great Seal of New South Wales to their
> King.  Its obverse depicted "Convicts landed at Botany-Bay; their fetters taken off and
> received by Industry sitting on a Bale of Goods with her attributes, the distaff,
> bee-hive, pickaxe and spade, pointing to oxen ploughing, the rising habitations, and a
> church on a hill at the distance, with a fort for their defence," and the Virgilian motto
> Sic fortis Etruria crevit, "Thus Etruria grew strong."

OK, I see it now. I have Tom's scan beside me as I write and can accept
that the guy sitting on a trunk could be pointing to someone in a field
(don't see the oxen, tho'). I thought he was warning the newly arrived,
and rather well dressed, settlers to watch out for the anchor lying on
the dock.

By the way, why is "Industry" portrayed sitting around and not doing
much? At least the NSW version has his sleeves rolled up while in the
French "Industry & Commerce" series he has obviously yet to be
introduced to the concept of working.

All the best,
Bob Watson

 
 
 

Canada Specialists?

Post by Rodne » Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:17:05


| I'll get hold of that.

Try as I may, I am unable to re-locate the on-line text.
I may have tripped over a University on line topic program.
All I see now is Amazon Book adverts etc.

| OK, I see it now. I have Tom's scan beside me as I write and can accept
| that the guy sitting on a trunk could be pointing to someone in a field
| (don't see the oxen, tho'). I thought he was warning the newly arrived,
| and rather well dressed, settlers to watch out for the anchor lying on
| the dock.
|
| By the way, why is "Industry" portrayed sitting around and not doing
| much? At least the NSW version has his sleeves rolled up while in the
| French "Industry & Commerce" series he has obviously yet to be
| introduced to the concept of working.

Perhaps Industry was still recovering from the trip :)
Remember, there was no way at that time to duplicate the stamp image
for the plate' so every stamp image had to be engraved again separately
and it's fascinating to see the extreme variance of all the engravings.

Tom's issue has no number on the bale, if you search around the web
there are a few images you can collate to see the vast differences.
(some currently selling for around US $380)

Cheers

 
 
 

Canada Specialists?

Post by Bob Watso » Tue, 06 Jul 2004 09:26:38


Quote:

> | I'll get hold of that.

> Try as I may, I am unable to re-locate the on-line text.
> I may have tripped over a University on line topic program.
> All I see now is Amazon Book adverts etc.

The local library has it and I'll pick it up tomorrow.

Looking at the (many) online reviews, it seems that it is a *very* well
regarded book.

All the best,
Bob Watson