Question: Where best to discuss stamps? -- Or, "So What's R.C.S.D? Chopped Liver?" :-)

Question: Where best to discuss stamps? -- Or, "So What's R.C.S.D? Chopped Liver?" :-)

Post by Peter » Mon, 25 Dec 2000 01:15:32



[originally posted to alt.collecting.stamps, post-forwarded by me to
rec.collecting.discuss]

Llody has stated that he supports philately online. His critcs have said
that he supports *his* philately online. He has responded that he
supports *all* philately online. The message below says different. Not a
mention of rec.collecting.stamps or .marketplace. It might as well not
exist. Maybe that's the plan, eh? (was that too cynical for Christmas?)


Quote:
>>Where do I go for an
>>active discussion forum covering world stamps?

>Try the Virtual Stamp Club, at http://www.virtualstampclub.com
particularly
>(for discussion) its message board. It's the best place on the Web for
the
>latest philatelic news, information and discussion.

>Although much of it is about U.S. stamps, not all of it, nor all of its
>members, are American. (Recent discussions include Canada and Belgium.)

>It's in English, it's already open (and has been for 4 years this
month), it's
>free, and many messages are illustrated.

My view re virtualstampsclub (a Delphi forum by any other name)

I've steered away from the Delphi forum for several reasons:
#1 Delphi has a rep for spam-harbouring and spamming forum recipients
(which I can attest to being the case at least two years ago).

#2 The ads, especially the banner ads, scattered throughout the pages
were distracting.

#3 You never knew (and probably still don't) if you were getting good
advice or a commercial solicitation. So, was this recommended because it
was a good idea or because the person had an interest in the outcome?

#4 It seemed to me that to duplicate what was already being done on on
usenet, largely user/grassroots supported and driven with   what was
essentially a forum largely driven by commercial ends was both damaging
and predatory.

#5 Moderated forums. This is a tough one, but a "forum" is by it's very
nature an *open* one. Now, I'm not suggesting that any censorship exists
or that any criticism is squashed, but there is the possibility of such.
That's why I didn't subscribe (to discuss) to the Compuserve forum or
any of the other excellent lists that exist. They serve a purpose, but
not as an "open forum". Only usenet serves that function because the
only moderation is the group as it interprets the Charter and its
ability to convince an offender or the offender's ISP to act. The
decision gets left in a much wider range of hands and is thus more
likely to be equitably managed.
----------
Peter D

 
 
 

Question: Where best to discuss stamps? -- Or, "So What's R.C.S.D? Chopped Liver?" :-)

Post by Ada M. Pril » Mon, 25 Dec 2000 03:45:47


I'd like to defend the Virtual Stamp Club. I've done some extensive
snipping to highlight a few items I feel are out-of-date or otherwise
unfair criticism:

Quote:

> I've steered away from the Delphi forum for several reasons:
> #1 Delphi has a rep for spam-harbouring and spamming forum recipients
> (which I can attest to being the case at least two years ago).

Not any longer. VSC is now practically spam-proof. I have been on it since
spring 1998 and have never received any spam that could be traced to VSC.
I post almost daily there, and my total spam count from all sources is
about two items a month, by the way. Even Lloyd cannot access members'
e-mail addresses, although e-mails can be sent, one at a time, to members
by any participant. All of the e-mails I've received that way have been
non-commercial and even helpful. When I first signed up, I did get
automatic e-mails telling me when anyone had responded to one of my posts
or reminding me to check in if I missed doing so for a few days. There is
a "my preferences" section that makes it possible to totally eliminate
such mailings.

Quote:
> #2 The ads, especially the banner ads, scattered throughout the pages
> were distracting.

True, but go to www.adsubtract.com, and you can get rid of most of them on
this and all other sites.

Quote:
> #3 You never knew (and probably still don't) if you were getting good
> advice or a commercial solicitation. So, was this recommended because it
> was a good idea or because the person had an interest in the outcome?

Most of what's posted there is strictly informational (aside from the
ignorable designated place for buy/sell material). I have never seen
anything that didn't look like an ad but required spending money, so I'm
not sure what you are talking about.

Quote:
> #4 It seemed to me that to duplicate what was already being done on on
> usenet, largely user/grassroots supported and driven with   what was
> essentially a forum largely driven by commercial ends was both damaging
> and predatory.

A number of people just won't come to Usenet anymore because of vicious
personal attacks and the like. Civility is maintained in part by it being
a moderated forum. I don't know what is "damaging and predatory." Ads can
be filtered out or just ignored. And, as I said, spam is non-existent.
It's also nice to be able to get good pictures of new issues and the like,
not possible in Usenet.

Quote:
> #5 Moderated forums. This is a tough one, but a "forum" is by it's very
> nature an *open* one. Now, I'm not suggesting that any censorship exists
> or that any criticism is squashed, but there is the possibility of such.

Perhaps so, but as one of the people who has the power (but has never used
it) to delete offensive messages, I can attest to the fact that only the
blatantly off-topic, ***, or vicious is "censored." We get very, very
little of any of that, in part because everyone there knows it will be
deleted. People feel safe there. Sure there is disagreement and
controversy, but it doesn't get cruelly personal - we argue about
philately but don't call each other obscenities for disagreeing. Seems
fine that way to me.

To check out the message board, go to
http://www.FoundCollection.com/
(Lloyd may want to update this address - there is a new "virtualstampclub"
address, but the old one still works fine, and that's what I have on my
browser.)

You can sign in as a guest if you don't want to register. But registering
will NOT get you spammed. Just be sure to "turn off" the automatic
notifications, and you'll get no extra e-mail for being a member.

Ada

 
 
 

Question: Where best to discuss stamps? -- Or, "So What's R.C.S.D? Chopped Liver?" :-)

Post by Pierre Courtiad » Mon, 25 Dec 2000 14:21:49


Hi Ada and thank you for this interesting post,

Especially for the link to 'adsubstract' as I am a 'publiphobe' ;-))
BTW, I am interested to know how to trace a spam, i.e. how to know the forum
where its author got one's e-mail address ?
Many thanks in advance.
Merry Christmas to you and to all the readers/contributors to rcsd.

Amicalement,
Pierre COURTIADE
Paris, France



..............

Quote:
> Not any longer. VSC is now practically spam-proof. I have been on it since
> spring 1998 and have never received any spam that could be traced to VSC.
..............
> Ada

 
 
 

Question: Where best to discuss stamps? -- Or, "So What's R.C.S.D? Chopped Liver?" :-)

Post by Peter » Mon, 25 Dec 2000 15:48:40



Quote:

>>I've steered away from the Delphi forum for several reasons:
>>#1 Delphi has a rep for spam-harbouring and spamming forum recipients
>>(which I can attest to being the case at least two years ago).

>What are you talking about?  I've been a member for three or four years
>and have never received a single spam message that could be traced back
>to Delphi.  I think you are way off base with this criticism.  You are
>allowed to opt out of Delphi promotional messages when you join.  I did
>so and have never once received a unasked for message from Delphi.

Umm. Must have missed the opt-out message. Anyway, it's fairly simple to
create an email specific enough to trace it back to who you gave it to.
I joined Delphi, I got spammed, I told them no thanks, and I left
Delphi. As I said, 'at least two years ago'. So, I'm basing my criticism
on actual experience, and I'm glad yours has been different. However
your different experience doesn't invalidate mine.

Quote:
>>#2 The ads, especially the banner ads, scattered throughout the pages
>>were distracting.

>The ads are easily ignored.  The ads make it possible for Delphi to be
>provided at no cost.  I would rather put up with the ads than have to
>pay money to be a member.

You choice. Not mine. Again, different strokes for different folks.

Quote:
>>#4 It seemed to me that to duplicate what was already being done on on
>>usenet, largely user/grassroots supported and driven with   what was
>>essentially a forum largely driven by commercial ends was both
damaging
>>and predatory.

>Please tell me what in the world is "damaging and predatory" about
>Delphi.  Have you ever been there?  You sound like you don't know what
>you are talking about.  Usenet has its place, but many people either
>cannot or will not frequent usenet.  Either from lack of knowledge
about
>how to access it, or from bad experiences they've had here.  Delphi and
>other web based forums are easier for these people to use and since
it's
>moderated, safer for them to use.

Again, read the context. I'm talking about 'back then'. If now is
different, I might take a look.

The danger? Delphi doesn't run the forum for the good of the hobby.
Delphi runs the forum to make money. That's fine, no harm in making
money. However, that means that eventually the needs of Delphi to make
money will clash with the needs of the hobby. When that happens, the
hobby will probably suffer. Of course, Delphi might be a corporaiton
more interested in stamp collecting than money-making, but if it is it's
an oddity in the corporate world.

Usenet exists and 'just is'. It began and still largely exists without
any profit driven mandate. Usenet cannot be controlled by any one
corporation. Usenet disenfranchises those who seek to commercialise it.
So there is no clash ever between a profit motive and the good of the
hobby.

"Predatory"? Well, I regard attempts to dissuade people form this forum
and encourag ethem to go to "that" forum as 'predatory'. You may regar
dhtat as too strogn a word, but there it is. I make no apologies for its
use. Those who know me knwo I speak my mind and I call it liek I see it,
no favourites, no fancies.

Quote:
>It's obvious to me that you have some kind of a beef against Lloyd.  I
>don't know what started it, but I think you are biased against him for
>some reason.  However, I don't think these kinds of unfair criticisms
>should be allowed to go unchallenged.  If you are happy with
>rec.collecting.stamps.discuss then great, don't go to Delphi, but why
>must you attempt to unfairly portray it like this.

Mike, I have no 'beef' against Lloyd. None at all. Lloyd has portrayed
himself as the supporter of philately on the Internet. People hav
esuggeste dhe means *is* forum. He has countered by stating he means
*all* forums. His reply (posted in alt.collecting.stamps) made specific
mention of only *one* forum. I call it the way I see it. I posted his
reply in full with no editing.

Lloyd is free to explain or not, as he sees fit. Consider it "FYI" if
you dont' agree.
HTH
----------
Peter D

 
 
 

Question: Where best to discuss stamps? -- Or, "So What's R.C.S.D? Chopped Liver?" :-)

Post by Peter » Mon, 25 Dec 2000 16:45:13



Quote:

>>I've steered away from the Delphi forum for several reasons:
>>#1 Delphi has a rep for spam-harbouring and spamming forum recipients
>>(which I can attest to being the case at least two years ago).

>What are you talking about?  I've been a member for three or four years
>and have never received a single spam message that could be traced back
>to Delphi.  I think you are way off base with this criticism.  You are
>allowed to opt out of Delphi promotional messages when you join.  I did
>so and have never once received a unasked for message from Delphi.

Umm. Must have missed the opt-out message. Anyway, it's fairly simple to
create an email specific enough to trace it back to who you gave it to.
I joined Delphi, I got spammed, I told them no thanks, and I left
Delphi. As I said, 'at least two years ago'. So, I'm basing my criticism
on actual experience, and I'm glad yours has been different. However
your different experience doesn't invalidate mine.

Quote:
>>#2 The ads, especially the banner ads, scattered throughout the pages
>>were distracting.

>The ads are easily ignored.  The ads make it possible for Delphi to be
>provided at no cost.  I would rather put up with the ads than have to
>pay money to be a member.

You choice. Not mine. Again, different strokes for different folks.

Quote:
>>#4 It seemed to me that to duplicate what was already being done on on
>>usenet, largely user/grassroots supported and driven with   what was
>>essentially a forum largely driven by commercial ends was both
damaging
>>and predatory.

>Please tell me what in the world is "damaging and predatory" about
>Delphi.  Have you ever been there?  You sound like you don't know what
>you are talking about.  Usenet has its place, but many people either
>cannot or will not frequent usenet.  Either from lack of knowledge
about
>how to access it, or from bad experiences they've had here.  Delphi and
>other web based forums are easier for these people to use and since
it's
>moderated, safer for them to use.

Again, read the context. I'm talking about 'back then'. If now is
different, I might take a look.

The danger? Delphi doesn't run the forum for the good of the hobby.
Delphi runs the forum to make money. That's fine, no harm in making
money. However, that means that eventually the needs of Delphi to make
money will clash with the needs of the hobby. When that happens, the
hobby will probably suffer. Of course, Delphi might be a corporaiton
more interested in stamp collecting than money-making, but if it is it's
an oddity in the corporate world.

Usenet exists and 'just is'. It began and still largely exists without
any profit driven mandate. Usenet cannot be controlled by any one
corporation. Usenet disenfranchises those who seek to commercialise it.
So there is no clash ever between a profit motive and the good of the
hobby.

"Predatory"? Well, I regard attempts to dissuade people form this forum
and encourag ethem to go to "that" forum as 'predatory'. You may regar
dhtat as too strogn a word, but there it is. I make no apologies for its
use. Those who know me knwo I speak my mind and I call it liek I see it,
no favourites, no fancies.

Quote:
>It's obvious to me that you have some kind of a beef against Lloyd.  I
>don't know what started it, but I think you are biased against him for
>some reason.  However, I don't think these kinds of unfair criticisms
>should be allowed to go unchallenged.  If you are happy with
>rec.collecting.stamps.discuss then great, don't go to Delphi, but why
>must you attempt to unfairly portray it like this.

Mike, I have no 'beef' against Lloyd. None at all. Lloyd has portrayed
himself as the supporter of philately on the Internet. People hav
esuggeste dhe means *is* forum. He has countered by stating he means
*all* forums. His reply (posted in alt.collecting.stamps) made specific
mention of only *one* forum. I call it the way I see it. I posted his
reply in full with no editing.

Lloyd is free to explain or not, as he sees fit. Consider it "FYI" if
you dont' agree.
HTH
----------
Peter D

 
 
 

Question: Where best to discuss stamps? -- Or, "So What's R.C.S.D? Chopped Liver?" :-)

Post by The Llo » Mon, 25 Dec 2000 18:08:26


Quote:
>>>#1 Delphi has a rep for spam-harbouring and spamming forum recipients

I get more spam after posting to RCSD than anywhere else. Since I use my AOL
account for RCSD, it's pretty easy to correlate cause and effect: I post here,
the number of spams I receive on this otherwise-unpublicized account goes up.

Yes, about two years ago, some spammers were PRETENDING to be sending from

a couple of lists....but the company took steps to prevent that from happening.

Speaking of which, if getting spammed after posting here isn't a problem,
Peter, why do you use that return address?

Quote:
>Delphi runs the forum

Delphi doesn't run the forum. Delphi allows us the space to run the forum,
within certain very loose guidelines. We handle the editorial tone, Delphi
handles the technical.

Quote:
> I regard attempts to dissuade people form this forum

I didn't attempt to dissuade anyone from this forum. Someone asked in
alt.collecting.stamps where to go to discuss stamp collecting. I recommended,
and recommend, the Virtual Stamp Club (which happens to reside on Delphi these
days) -- http://www.virtualstampclub.com

You recommended RCSD. Someone recommended a French newsgroup. The only
"attempted dissuasion" I've seen, Peter, has been yours, against the VSC
("Delphi").

I don't think my running for office or serving as an officer of the APS means I
have to promote actively every stamp collecting venue on the Internet.

I have mentioned RCSD (as well as VSC, the About.com Stamp Collecting Forum,
and Greg Deeter's email group, among others) in my Global Stamp News column.

Or, by mentioning one print publication, am I being "predatory" against all the
others, Peter?

<<<Lloyd>>>

 
 
 

Question: Where best to discuss stamps? -- Or, "So What's R.C.S.D? Chopped Liver?" :-)

Post by Kaleb S. KEITHLE » Mon, 25 Dec 2000 20:18:31


Quote:

> I don't think my running for office or serving as an officer of the APS means I
> have to promote actively every stamp collecting venue on the Internet.

> <<<Lloyd>>>

Actually I believe it does.

Having campaigned -- for the office in the APS you hold now -- on a
platform that included "promoting philately on the internet," I think
that you should promote as many venues as you know about, and not just
the one you have a vested interest in. Otherwise it tends to make you
look biased.

As an officer in the APS you have more constituents than just yourself.
You have to ask yourself whether you're representing all the people who
voted for you, and even the people who didn't. Speaking as an APS
member, I don't believe that as long as you're as APS officer that you
can pick and choose when you're going to wear your APS hat, and when
you're going to take it off.

If you write about other venues in your GSN column, that's great -- nice
to hear it. But it rings sort of hollow when you say and do one thing in
one place, and say and do something else everywhere else. We call that
"being two faced." ;-)

If you want my vote you have to serve __all__ of us.

Otherwise I just might have to run against you. What do you suppose I'd
get -- one vote? :-)

--
Kaleb

 
 
 

Question: Where best to discuss stamps? -- Or, "So What's R.C.S.D? Chopped Liver?" :-)

Post by Ada M. Pril » Mon, 25 Dec 2000 23:59:31


I don't have any good way to trace most spam, but if I post for the first
time in a forum - or post something particularly controversial - and then
suddenly get spammed, I am suspicious. What I did with the Virtual Stamp
Club was set up a hotmail account, which I initially used as my mailing
address for them. When absolutely nothing landed in that account for a
couple of weeks, I switched the address to my normal e-mail address. Once
the hotmail account was used similarly for something that did generate
spam, and then I closed the account. I'll open another if I want to "test"
some other forum or commercial enterprise. But I can be very confident
that a connection thus tested is not a spam generator. And since the spam
I receive has dwindled to almost nothing, it seems to have worked.

Ada

Quote:

> Hi Ada and thank you for this interesting post,

> Especially for the link to 'adsubstract' as I am a 'publiphobe' ;-))
> BTW, I am interested to know how to trace a spam, i.e. how to know the forum
> where its author got one's e-mail address ?
> Many thanks in advance.
> Merry Christmas to you and to all the readers/contributors to rcsd.

> Amicalement,
> Pierre COURTIADE
> Paris, France



> ..............
> > Not any longer. VSC is now practically spam-proof. I have been on it since
> > spring 1998 and have never received any spam that could be traced to VSC.
> ..............
> > Ada

 
 
 

Question: Where best to discuss stamps? -- Or, "So What's R.C.S.D? Chopped Liver?" :-)

Post by Tracy Barb » Tue, 26 Dec 2000 00:04:59


Kaleb, maybe 2, 3 votes...  Maybe more.  I haven't looked into it, but
don't they sort of elect from within APS?  Or maybe seem to?

Maybe I should pay closer attention, but I'm about 6 months behind on
the APS mag.

Tracy Barber

On Sun, 24 Dec 2000 06:18:31 -0500, "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY"

Quote:


>> I don't think my running for office or serving as an officer of the APS means I
>> have to promote actively every stamp collecting venue on the Internet.

>> <<<Lloyd>>>

>Actually I believe it does.

>Having campaigned -- for the office in the APS you hold now -- on a
>platform that included "promoting philately on the internet," I think
>that you should promote as many venues as you know about, and not just
>the one you have a vested interest in. Otherwise it tends to make you
>look biased.

>As an officer in the APS you have more constituents than just yourself.
>You have to ask yourself whether you're representing all the people who
>voted for you, and even the people who didn't. Speaking as an APS
>member, I don't believe that as long as you're as APS officer that you
>can pick and choose when you're going to wear your APS hat, and when
>you're going to take it off.

>If you write about other venues in your GSN column, that's great -- nice
>to hear it. But it rings sort of hollow when you say and do one thing in
>one place, and say and do something else everywhere else. We call that
>"being two faced." ;-)

>If you want my vote you have to serve __all__ of us.

>Otherwise I just might have to run against you. What do you suppose I'd
>get -- one vote? :-)

>--
>Kaleb

 
 
 

Question: Where best to discuss stamps? -- Or, "So What's R.C.S.D? Chopped Liver?" :-)

Post by Ada M. Pril » Tue, 26 Dec 2000 00:08:58


Quote:

> "Predatory"? Well, I regard attempts to dissuade people form this forum
> and encourag ethem to go to "that" forum as 'predatory'.

It isn't a zero sum game, Peter. I am on this forum several times a day as
well as being on the Delphi forum equally often. The Virtual Stamp Club
has added a lot to my enjoyment of the hobby, but I've never been asked to
choose one or the other.

As far as Lloyd only mentioning one forum in one particular posting, that
seems fine to me as well. There were other people answering with other
choices, after all. Even an APS officer should not have to make a complete
posting of the philatelic resources on the net every time he mentions his
favorite. Or promotes it, if you prefer.

Ada